Point/Rank System Revamp

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Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by FlamboyantFaustino » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:08 pm

There seems to be some interest in rebalancing the point system, so I figured I'd make a thread to gather everyone's opinions here.

What I'd like to know is:

1. Do you think the point system needs rebalancing?

2. If so, what should be changed?

Personally I feel that group points give too many points, and completions give far too few points:

For completions: Surf_sinane bonus completion gives 5000 pts on KSF and on TF2 it gives 36. While not all point discrepancies are this big, there still is a gap between KSF's completion points and our own, with KSF generally giving more points for high-tier map completions.

For group points: KSF gives less group points for easy maps. For example, surf_aircontrol on KSF G1 is 982 pts, while on TF2 it is 1436 (not to mention how easy a G1 aircontrol run is now, considering the maxvel was removed). A G1 run of surf_aircontrol in TF2 gives 1436 points, and completing every T6 map + their bonuses on Tf2 gives 1561 points. While they give nearly the same points towards ranks, much more skill is required to beat all T6 maps + Bonuses. That being said, I don't feel group points are representative of skill in TF2, especially since the average CSS surfer is better than the average TF2 surfer.
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by Fury » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:19 pm

these are good points
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by Insomnia » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:20 pm

I agree, and this has been discussed a little bit. The group points especially need to be reworked.
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by not_a_zombie » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:21 pm

I can name quite a few problems:

1) Grinding easy maps gives too many points, as Faustino said.

2) Grinding hard maps gives too few points, unless you can get a top 10 - group 3 on t3+ maps, which is normally roughly rank 20 or better, gives only a dozen or two points typically. This is harder than completing a tier 3+ map or getting rank 200 on a tier 1 map, yet both of those give more points. I believe the group system should be revamped so that improving times on harder maps with fewer completions is rewarded more, and improving times on easier maps with more completions is rewarded less.

3) Points for bonus completion depends purely on map tier, not on how hard the bonus is. All of the bonuses of surf_666 are worth the same amount, surf_whoknows bonus is worth twice as much as surf_me bonus 4 or surf_inspire bonus. Bonus completion points should be independent of map tier and based on how hard the bonus actually is. This will require building a table of how hard each bonus is, but I believe this can be done.

4) On hard maps, top 10 times can be practically free, and once you have a top 10, there is little incentive to improve your time. As an example, rank 10 on surf_cordelia is over 9 minutes. I propose that if your time is too much slower than the WR, say, more than 25-50%, you will not receive top 10 points no matter your rank.

5) WRs are barely worth more than rank 2 - this gives little incentive to get a WR, and a strong incentive to merely get a top time and move on. If there was a sharper curve for top times, WRs would be more worth going for than they are now.
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by Mewsiiick » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:43 pm

good points, maybe increase # of pts WR gives.

i'm only mad about point system because i'm on the edge of hero and want more pts
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by Shadow Sheep » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:59 pm

I don't not pay much attention as to what is the best way to "grind" for points in general, but there I think the top 10 times for maps should not depend on the tier value of the map.

While point difference could make sense when completing maps with a harder tiers (except for stages and bonuses) because it is harder to complete a harder map, getting a top 10 on a harder map is not always harder. Ranks and score ordering is always relative to other players, and the map being harder does not give you a disadvantage from them to get a top 10 time.

I also think that with all the knowledge we have today in 2016 about surfing, we should move on to a more accurate way of qualifying the difficulty of maps.

Now, here is 2 thoughts that I have, but that you should only read if you really do care about my point of view about hom this server could server:
  • The general surf top system should make it so only the most competent surfers are the ones with the most points (maybe the way we have the server right now is the least bad way to get this accurate, but I doubt it as well as probably some other people on this forum thread).
  • As a temporal replacement for tiers in the span of time it takes to create and implement a more accurate way of judging a map's difficultiy, I suggest ordering them by amount of registered map runs per map (most completed being the easiest, least completed the hardest). A map can be completed a lot because it is easy (so not hard to get to the end of it), but also because it is being played really often on servers (and since you have more time on servers to play it, you spend more time getting better at it and eventualy beat it). If a map is misranked because it is easy, but not played, people will be encouraged to play it as it gives more points, until the map gets sorted to its propper rank again (promoting less played and newer maps that way). On a last note, this system garantees each map to always have an updated difficulty rating compared to each other, which would not be the case if for example in 2026 a t4 of 2026 map gets added even though it is a tier 6 of 2013. Keeping on using a 1-6 tier system as more harder maps are being made is like if we still used the centimeters contained on a 20 cm ruler today to measure the distance between stars because people of the past didn't foresee that science would need bigger measurement numbers: inappropriate.
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by Markus. » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:07 pm

sort of the same subject-
I think it's too east to reach the rank [Expert] and [Veteran], simply based on the names of the ranks.
You can easily reach expert by just grinding tier ones and twos, and that doesn't make you no expert imo.

idk just change the names or something :DDD
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by asscmalt » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:43 pm

Well I can't change the actual structure of the system at all, but I can definitely adjust some of the point formulas so it more accurately reflects the playerbase. Just for feedback on what to change, I'll post how things are currently calculated.

Group Points (Difficult to adjust, formula variables can be adjusted, but it can't be too different than what I already have)

( ( .010 * Tier ) * 2^ (5 - Group) ) ) * Completions

Top 10 Points (Pretty easy to adjust if its still just a formula)

Top 10 points = (Rank^2) - ( 21.0 * Rank ) + 70.0 ) * tier + 350.0;

Completion points (Really easy to adjust logic / most freedom)
Everything here is really strange. Wrote it a while ago and don't get some of my choices.

Map completion points = Linear: Tier * 13, Staged: Tier * 7 (Roughly half for map completion, made up for in stage points.)
Stage completion points = (Map Points) / (stages / 2)
Bonus completion points = Tier * 6

(really no idea why I have this next part this way)
IF MAP HAS A BONUS : Buffer1 = ( 50 * tier ) + 350) / 8
IF NOT : Buffer1 = ( 50 * tier ) + 350) / 4

Bonus record points - Buffer1 / Total Map Bonuses
Stage record points - Buffer1 / Total Map Stages
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by PK » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:55 pm

Points system could definitely use a rework.

I think the biggest thing is to scale group points by tier (mentioned previously). It's more worth my time points-wise to grind g1s on t1s than trying to beat t5s. That isn't to say getting g1 doesn't take skill, but it isn't as good of an indicator of skill as comps.
I know completion points are adjusted by tier already but I think they should be scaled more for higher tiers.

I think bumping Master to 12K and adding another rank (like Pro or something- come up with whatever adjective you like) at like 18-20k since we actually have people in that range now.

It's tough to balance keeping people feeling like they're improving by ranking up and not making everything too top-heavy. We don't have enough people that are both active and able to beat t5/6s often to warrant proper point scaling for the upper ranks, so we can't have a "truly representative" system for top tiers. But yeah, I think adjusting completions and group points is the way to go for now.
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Re: Point/Rank System Revamp

Post by PK » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:45 am

Bumping this again, what about making completions logarithmic instead of linear? So instead of Tier * 13 for linears, something like 13 * (1 + (pick a number, 1.66-2 are p good)*Tier*log(Tier))? The value of a Tier 1-2 is very similar but higher tiers are worth gradually more. The only way this scaling becomes an issue for staged maps like syria_again where the tier is high but most of the stages are easy, but I don't thing there's too many maps like that.
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