Suggestions...or something I guess

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Shadow Sheep
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Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:50 am

Edit 19/07/2015: To make it easier for people to see what the suggestions mostly are and to allow admins to check to state of what is still to do, I did put a summary list at the end of the second post. Make sure to read the whole referring paragraph before commenting on one suggestion though.

Note: The reason of this post I am doing is because when I have suggestions, I wait for tordana or malt to come on the server to tell them about my ideas. A few months ago though, they told me that they tend to forget what has been said in the chat and that I should put my ideas on the forum instead. So I made a list with all the suggestions I had and put it here today. So here it is! (please don't feel like you have to read all at once ! ).


This is the part 1 of my suggestions. Apparently, 60000 Characters is the limit for a forum post. So I had to split it in 2 parts!


Good evening Resurfed community.



Since its the holidays period, I felt like its the period of time where the people will be the most active on our servers. So I thought that it is the best period to improve the servers and the community in general in order to make it even more enjoyable for the players who play on it.

But who are you ?


A random player. My username is Shadow Sheep but I am nothing special. I am not even part of the resurfed community, even though I just created a Resurfed forum account to type this message. I am just an usual player of resurfed and spent 1 500 hours surfing on the servers with 100% of completion. So that's what I am : a dedicated player of this server .

How do you dare thinking you are qualified enough to emit suggestions ?

I played countless hours on the servers along with the maps and the community, from the easy server of Chicago to the hard server of Australia. I know how the servers work and how things could be better for the use we make of them. I also know most of the community playing on the servers and how people play on the servers. I know what most of their complains is about and even a quarter of the input I have in this post comes from the community itself and not me. I have a lot of experience on the servers and see what things confuse the beginners and frustrate the experimented players. I am also in the process of making a surfing map and know most of the Hammer things. All the suggestions I will tell you about are things that you may not have heard about because you don’t have my playing experience, the right point of view or the right persons to tell you about them. That is for all these reasons that I think I am the right person to tell you about all the suggestions I have.

What if we are just too lazy to care about your suggestions ?


Then it means you created a server for a community you don’t care about. You have to re-consider what are the objectives of your server. If you create a server, its to make people come on it. If people come on the server, its to find something enjoyable to play and that they will find unique and neat. If you are someone who wants the best for their player, you will actually encourage a lot of players to come and even help with the effort by supporting you with donations or even giving help with management and maybe plugin programming. If you show to the players that you don’t care about what you do, this positive energy would not exist because there is no real goal behind the infrastructure developed. That is the reason team fortress 2 is so popular, it had updates for the players and some of the content were done by the players and for the players. The people playing the game then felt like it was meant for them. If the developers never updated the game, then everyone would have moved on out of boringness and frustration. Resurfed is the best team fortress 2 surf server I ever played on. Please let my suggestions make it the best on the universe !



The Suggestions

Resurfed community :

1. [IMPLEMENTED] More dialog between Admins and players
Spoiler
Right now, the way the servers feels like is that the admins do their things and the players are just playing. There is no real dialog about features they add and what is needed. So things like the new ve update happen : an update that no one has asked about but that arrived servers. So if you want to take a decision, please now tell the actual players about it. They are the people who can judge if its good for the community or not and explain how to maybe improve things. You don’t do things without a reason, but this reason is unknown to most of people and is generally implied by the way the update is done. You have to think about why the admins did do that to explain yourself why they chose to do it. That is not how you want things to work. Even though you have the power to do things, you should let the community decide what it wants to be, and therefore, I think there should be more dialog in general. I know people will tell me about the forums, but most of the players say that it is barely used. Even me, from the time I play on the servers, I just created a forum account just now ! So forum is good, but not enough. We need announcement in the chat to tell people about what is going on, and maybe tell them to come to the forum page to discuss/vote updates before they actually happen. That is how you want the community to evolve : by collaboration with the actual people who play on the server.
2. Fusionning Tempus and Resurfed into one same community
Spoiler
Before resurfed and tempus existed, there was the IT community founded by Klare. It had multiple servers including jump_it and surf_it. Since Klare retired, the servers splitted into Resurfed and Tempus. I play on both, and notice that the players have the same mentality, the same discussions on the servers, the game mechanisms are the same, the timer is nearly the same and even some players are the same. So if we are the same, wouldn’t it be good for us to make our communities not separated and unified as before ? What if we had a server which had surfing settings, but also rocket jump and bhop to play jurfing, with special maps created by the community specially for that purpose ? Wouldn’t it end up in a new awesome gamemode that no one has attempted before ? If you need to look for a new name for this new combined community, please refer to the suggestion number 1.

3. [IMPLEMENTED] Note : This Suggestion isn’t related to Resurfed but to the programming abilities that malt has with his timer and SurfBot.
Developing a Tool Assited Speedrun plugin
Spoiler
« But thats cheating ! »
But what is cheating ? Cheating is « to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something ». The reason TASing isn’t cheating is because it has rules that are different compared to classic speedrunning, which means its an entirely different game. So what is Tool assisted speedrunning ?
Lets first remind you what a speedrun is. A speedrun is when a human player attempt to complete a game or a part of a game as fast as possible. The goal is to have an execution as good as possible in order to achieve that goal which is to get the fastest time. The main focus of speedrunning is the competition and trying to reach the human limits.

In Tool Assisted Speedrunning, things are a bit different. The goal is still to complete the game as fast as possible, but on a different perspective. Here, the goal is to find the shortest series of key presses needed in order to beat the game. In TAS, you want to get a run as perfect as possible game, which is the reasons you usually have « tools ». It is usually done on console games through emulators, allowing you to make extremely segmented runs.
The rules are simple : You have to not modify the game ROM or files, play as if it was the first time you launch it on a computer or console. And the performance done has to be doable on a real console or computer. If your TAS cannot be verified as being doable on a real machine, then it means the run isn’t valid. A perfect TAS run cannot be improved by a single frame using the known strategies at the time of release.
The tools used to TAS a game are commonly the following (I mean tool as way to make a run and not the actual name of software used to make them):

-Frame Advance : In order to do a run as frame perfect as possible, you have to make sure you are precise enough to press the keys at the right frame. This tool allows you to run the game frames after frames (or here in tf2, ticks after ticks).

-Save States : they allow you to make a save of the game state on the current frame you make it, and you can resume the save at this precise frame. In the tool assisted speedrun community, the number of time you resume saves during the process of making the TAS run is called rerecords, and it is very useful to see how optimized a run is. Some TAS of really short games only require 3 000 rerecords, while very optimized runs can take 5 000 000 of rerecords (cf Super Mario 64 120 Stars TAS by, the number stated on the run is only 2 million because they had to start over twice after a year of work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL6VE_5PddM).

-RAM Watch : This tool allows you to see what is the content of the ram in the console. It can be useful to see information that are not necessarily present in the game gameplay, like the speed of the character’s sprite, its position, etc. It can be usefull to do what is called luck manipulation. Basically, imagine a situation where in tf2 you want to !rtd the noclip effect. Before typing the command, you make a save. Then you type !rtd. Bad luck : you rolled drunk. But you saw in the RAM that you rolled it because there was the number 37 in it (this example is to make it clear for everyone and has no application anywhere). You also noticed that if you jump, the number becomes 41, if you duck, it becomes 26. If you jump+duck, the number gets 55 in the RAM. You also noticed that if the number 26 is in the RAM, you will roll noclip. So you load the save, press duck, then type !rtd : you rolled noclip ! What you just did is called luck manipulation, which is useless in tf2, but can be on other games where drops from creatures can be random for example.

-Ex-editing : Its basically taking a segment of an other TAS run to include it to the current one you made because you find that the way its done it the most optimal or good for your run. Can cause desync problems with the run playing back when not done carefully.
These are the tools used to elaborate a TAS, but what do you do with that ? In fact, what you do when doing a tas run is editing a .txt file where there is all the keys pressed on each referring frame. Making a TAS run is exactly like composing a sheet music for the musician to be able to play it.

Here a good example of what a TAS is like :


If you understood the point of what is on this video, you exactly understood what was the point of a TAS. We don’t care if a human can play this song on a real piano, all that counts is being able to compose a music that is beautiful, creative and if a piano receiving these inputs can produce the music on this video. « But there is no piano that can produce this music, even if we somehow manage to have this sheet music playing on it ! » . Are you sure ?


See ? It is possible on a real piano. Our TAS run has been verified. Here, we didn’t care if a human is capable of playing this song, but to try and find the limit of what a piano can possibly produce.

Now lets talk about video games now that you understood the principles of TASing. Here is a TAS of super Mario 64 with the Backward Long Jump glitch done in 5:02.25 By Snark, Kyman, sonicpacker, Mickey/VIS, and ToT (its one of the category they made because it skips a big part of the game). You can see at 1min 2 sec that the run was done in 96969 re-records, why is a huge amount of retries for a five minutes run . But you can easily understand why when watching the run.



And here is the run played on a real console



For more information, please check these websites :

http://tasvideos.org/WelcomeToTASVideos.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool-assisted_speedrun

What can Tool Assisted Speedrunning bring to Team Fortress 2 ?

Many other game have been TASed, but mainly on consoles. TASing is a very fun discipline, and is oftently done by the same people who speedruns in team with developers and people knowing how the game mechanisms work. All in a collaborative seek on how far the game’s limits can be pushed. They usually find glitches by accidentaly doing them by playing the game "normally", then do a bit of TAS research and testing with the game to understand how it is done and in what conditions. Then, they create a tool assisted speedrun of the game with all the technics previously found. Of course, when TASing a game, there isn't the notion of "risk". If you don't attempt a shortcut in a TAS, its because its not worth it or not possible at all. This leads to them doing very hard trick called « TAS-Only » because the difficulty/risk isn’t worth doing in a classic speedrun at that time. But eventually, as the speedrunning community gets more and more competitive, speedrunners attempt to implement tas-only tricks in their speedruns. Team Fortress 2 has a very big and active community and I think TAS can bring a lot to the way we see the game and better understanding how it works (even if we figured most of the game's mechanism through playing). We could even create TAS maps ment to be played exclusively in Tool Assisted speedrun as a big challenge. Of course, this will remain beneficial if there is a clear distinction between what is a TAS and what is not. People could try to pass bad TAS runs as very good speedruns, which is why TAS should only be reserved for offline usage exclusively. In the opposite of Speedrunning where everyone fights each other to see who is the best, here in TAS, its everyone who try to think about the best solutions to the puzzle. Instead of Competition, TAS is collaboration between each other. There are TAS runs done by 40 people sometimes.


Now, how should we implement that into tf2 ?
First, we need a way to record and playback the runs. The demos you can records from the developer’s console isn’t a good way to do it in my opinion because its like recording with a camera someone doing the run, instead of recording the run. So we need a way to record the key presses (for the movement and actions of the player), the mouse movements (to record where the aim is) and the cursor position on the screen (if we need to navigate through menus).

Second, the tools. The slow-motion tool is already accessible in-game through host_timescale, but I don’t know if it does modify the tick rate of the server through the process. The savestate tool exists in the timer of resurfed from the !sl and !tl command which allows us to save and resume a position. You would just have to implement a counter to count the number of times saves get resumed to get the re-records count. When recording the run, you write in the playback file the inputs, when resuming a savestate, you delete all the inputs done since the save was done in the file. At the end, you get the run with only the keys needed to do the performance. RAM watching is pointless because information like speed and position can be accessible without tools within tf2. Ex-editing can be nice for collaborative work from the community.

Third, we need to establish rules and a timing system. The TAS runs of tf2 has to be played on an untouched official version of the game and on an untouched version of the map the run is on. That way, we are making sure that the game cannot be cheated and that everything done in that tas run can be done in the game. Then we either make the keypresses file directly do the action through console, or we establish a common config situation so we are sure that if we playback the run, the key pressed with do the correct things in-game (I would suggest to use the default one for now).
Then, to time it, we will do like they time in TAS runs. The moment where the timer start is on the first frame the game is launching, and the moment it stops is the moment of the last keys pressed in order to make the ending appear. For example in tf2, if the end of the map is a big jump, then the timer stops on the last key press needed in order to make the character land on the platform. So, we need to time it in tf2 from the Motd screen to the last key press needed to finish the map. That way, even if there are moving things in the map, everyone who does a TAS starts at the same moment, so its the same for everyone. A tf2 TAS run will then be clicking through the menus, join the team needed, play through the map, and stop when last inputs are pressed to finish. We can also display the timer of a classic speedrun in the video in order to not confuse everyone about it, which is from the moment you leave the start area to the moment you touch the ending area. People sometimes get confused about the different timing systems, which makes it so sometimes a TAS run can appear slower than a classic speedrun because on legend of zelda ocarina of time for example, a classic speedrunner would stop the timer on the last hit on the last boss, when in a TAS run the timer stops 5 minutes after the credits started because you have to go through the characters dialog in order to display the final credit screen. On that run in particular, the TASer did pur both TAS and Speedrun time to remove confusions.

I hope you can make this concept happen, as it doesn’t always have to be for speedrunning purposes. Indeed, there are runs called Tool Assisted freestyle, which is basically a show off of things that can be done in the game (like trick surfing/jumping, or even show how stupid bots are in a pub match). I used to TAS New Super Mario Bros DS and it was tons of fun to do. When i saw Casual doing his TAS runs of the jump maps, I since then really wanted to go back to that as it is interesting to do, even though it takes months to make a run. If a TAS plugin could be released by making sure no one can use it online, I think I would make a TAS series on youtube called « Maps done without speed limit » in collaboration with Bloody where we would basically surf maps with setting the sm_cvar sv_maxvelocity setting to a very high value and see how crazy it can be, just for entertainment and science purposes.

Timer plugin suggestions

4. Update the Australian servers to the timer of the other servers
Spoiler
Edit 10/07/2015: The timer plugin on the Australian servers are up to date. The announcement in the chat though are not. They still say that map completion give 100 points and stages give 5 points each (which in the purpose is a better announcement than the other servers have, see suggestion 20. for more information). So maybe someone should get in touch with the admin of the Australian server to change the announcement in the proper way to not get the players wrong. Maybe wait for the new announcement you will make on 20. to do that if you plan to. Also its up to him if he wants to keep the ranks on the server like they currently are or not in my opinion.
5. Put a Z velocity limit at Start zones with speed limitations
Spoiler
« Warning|Max velocity exceeded », cool cool…but how about telehopping upward ? There are maps where you can just fail a zone with an upward angle and start from higher on the surf course. For example, on surf_forbidden_tomb4, you can climb on the playerclip cage in order to start from higher, on surf_legends_njv, the ceiling is so high that you can gain 1 whole second on checkpoint 1 just by teleporting upward with 3500 u/s, flying up and then when going down leaving the start area as late as possible. On surf_glass9, you can climb on the cage at start is order to gain half a second. On surf_presmon stage 4, you can teleport through the door of s3 upward in order to fall directly to the ramp of s4 without touching the ground. I personally think this type of abuse isn’t something you should look for when speedrunning a map, which is the reason I think you should put a Z velocity limit in start zones with speed limitations.
6.[IMPLEMENTED] Fix the maps which used to have the cvar sv_maxvelocity set to higher values than 3500 u/s
Spoiler
In case this isn’t self explanatory, since a few weeks, some maps don’t have their maxvelocity changed anymore. That has for consequences to make some of them impossible to complete, like surf_fast, surf_calibration and surf_lt_omnific bonus 2 for example. This must be fix as fast as possible.
7. Put info_teleport_destination of the Resurfed Timer at least one unit above the ground
Spoiler
This is a common mistake people do in mapping sometimes : they put the info_teleport_destination at ground level as the exit of the trigger_teleport. This has for effect to make the tf2 player clip the bottom of his feet in the ground. When that happens, you get stuck for a random brief moment before magically getting unstuck and being able to walk again. This is the mistake malt did commit when porting surf_tundra and then surf_desolate : you indeed get stuck on the ground of s2 and s3 on these two maps when failing the stage.
This glitch is what is happening with the way most of the !teleport commands are set on the server. I would assume you did set them in-game, so you couldn’t really see from how much above ground you put them, but it turns out you wrongly placed 80% of them, which means that you get stuck each time you teleport to these broken spots. To repair what you did, you have to redo all your teleport destination spots to make sure they are as fluid as they should be.
8. Create a !show_trigger to show color coded vertices of the triggers
Spoiler
Have you ever wanted to know where the trigger of the start was in order to know how to leave it the best to do the best time on this stage ? Have you ever wondered where exactly that checkpoint was in this map ? Have you ever been frustrated by that type of map when you go one meter above ground and still get teleported for no reason ? Then this is a feature for you : a !show_trigger command. Basically, typing this command would show the vertices of the timer trigger with a color code into it. For example, green cube means its the start area, blue means is a checkpoint and red the end. You can also chose to show the map trigger instead with an other color code into it, like yellow for the trigger_teleport which send you to the start of the current stage, cyan for trigger_push that gives you a boost and purple for trigger_multiple that sets on you a filter that allows you to get a boost or to reach some areas (for example, on surf_fast, surf_eternal_beta and surf_apollonian stage 9). You can even do color stepped coloring, like orange if the trigger teleports to stage 1, light orange if it teleports to stage 2, yellow on stage3, etc. You can do that for checkpoints in linear maps too, like dark blue for checkpoint 1 and light blue for checkpoint 10. You can do that for stages too, like dark green for start of stage 1 and light green for start of last stage.
The command should either have a parameter into it (like « !show_trigger x », x being 0, 1, 2 and 3) or have a menu showing up on the left with 1. No trigger visible 2. Show timer triggers 3. Show map triggers 4. Show all triggers. You could also set some triggers as visible by default if the community thinks some triggers really need to be visible, like skybox lasers on surf_odyssey_fix. In this case, the player should have an option to hide them if he wants in the !options menu, with a « enable seeing explicit triggers by default » set to enabled/disable. This feature really would add a lot to the gameplay.
9. Allow the player to create his own checkpoints in the map (requires 8. to be implemented)
Spoiler
I don’t mean this as the player can change the actual checkpoints set in the map by the timer. I mean this as a complement. Sometimes, in maps, you can find that there are not enough checkpoints to tell you where you do good at the right places, or you would love to see them placed at better locations. What this feature would do is basically adding checkpoints only active for the player who puts them and that does the same job as the normal checkpoints in the map : Recording the time he did when touching it and printing his current time compared to his pr. That way, advanced players can get more information on where they are on their run. You can use that feature to have checkpoints on stages and bonuses too, which is handy on maps where they are very long (surf_overgrowth2 for example). This feature does not interfere with the current triggers on the map. It does get stored and one player only can save a certain number of checkpoint settings if storing too many of them causes performance issues. Add also a feature which allows one player to load someone’s else checkpoint for himself if he prefer the one from his friend so doesn’t have to set them all by himself. You should also include this feature to the hudconfigs and the tag from vips : just type a command to get the one of someone on the server and copy it into your profile, then you can chose to save the changes or not.
10. Add to the the server a more advanced checkpoint system like the speedrunners use on twitch.tv
Here is how I think it would be great for everyone who speedruns maps

10.a. Make the checkpoints record on both staged and linear maps on a successful map run
Spoiler
I know the timer already kind of does that, but it actually only records it for staged maps. For this first step, we need to make the timer also record the checkpoints time on linear maps like you did set it on staged maps. Right now, all it does is some printing work based on the current pr of the linear run and the current time when touching the checkpoint. What I meant is that you can get a pr on a checkpoint, like reaching checkpoint 3 in 42 seconds as a pr, and having a pr on the map with a checkpoint 3 at 42.53 seconds
10.b. Gold = Best personal Checkpoint, Green = you are still ahead, Red = You are behind
Spoiler
That is the kind of color coding they have when making a checkpoint with their timer splitting devices. You can see when going through a checkpoint if you did improve your checkpoint time even though you are behind your pr run. I insist on the fact that the pr on checkpoints have to be recorded from Successful runs. You can get a gold checkpoint by beating your pr on it, then fail the run and it will not be recorded. I say that so there is no abuse possible by people surfing the map in weird ways to get better time since the point of this feature is to know more precisely how your are doing on your run.
10.c. Allow the player to make his pr compare to a player’s pr instead of the world record
Spoiler
Sometimes, you know that you will not get the wr, but really want to beat your friend who is one rank above you, even though you are of course way better than him. Sometimes, a wr gets beaten by someone just because of one shortcut somewhere, but the rest is not as good as the previous run had, so in this case you prefer to compare your run to the more competitive checkpoints. For all these reasons, you should be able to configure your timer to compete with someone else than the world record, this player can even be yourself if you are like me and don’t care at all about what the other players do on the map.
10.d. Make the summary of all the checkpoint pr a player has to see his best potential pr
Spoiler
Have you ever sometimes wanted to know how fast you can go on a map, but never actually made all the shortcuts, tricks and good trajectories meet in the same run ? Of course you did ! That is what this feature is for : to inform you on the best time you can possibly do with the checkpoint pr recorded with the 10.a. . That way, you can know on both linear and staged maps where you can improve and what you are capable of.
10.e. make the summary of all the checkpoints of everyone to see what is the best potential wr
Spoiler
This meets the 3. Tas paragraph with the seek of the fastest time possible. But basically, if you take the best pr on each checkpoint of everyone and meet them together, then you can obtain what a « perfect » run could actually be. Then you can judge by how far the wr is to this perfect time if the wr is good or not compared to the difficulty of it. I think there can be some flaws with this way of doing because maybe people would try to focus on only going fast on parts in order to get a checkpoint world records, but they will not bring any points to the player anyway. It all just for information. So I genuinely think this is worth giving it a try, since it doesn’t even require that much coding on staged maps.
11. Make crouchboosting a separated category in the timer
Spoiler
Is cboosting cheating ? People tend to say yes, because its not consistent, free speed and "doesn’t require skill". The real answer though is no because the rules allow it. Since it does not break any rule, by definition cboosting isn’t cheating.
Is cboosting fair ? My answer is no. Why not ? Because cboost players and normal players are competing in the same category. And since cboosting is an advanced technic based on getting a huge amount of speed from boosts, the cboost guy will always win. But what is cboost exactly ? How does it work ? Let me explain :
A cboost, called crouchboost or duckrolling is when you abuse your crouched/unchrouched hitbox to enter and exit a trigger push x amount of times. This is possible because even though crouching seems to make a smooth transition between both positions, the hitbox (zone of your character registered for the game as size of you body to see if you collide with objects or not) changes instantly on the next tick.

The easiest crouchboost is based on bunnyhopping, but its not always needed. Here is the simplest to perform crouchboost situation. You are about to land on a platform with a trigger_push on it and are supposed to bhop on it.

The first step is to crouch before landing :
Image

Then you touch the trigger_push a first time and then the ground on which you bhop crouched :
Image

Then you release the crouch button. The way uncrouching in tf2 works is simple : if there is not enough room between you and the ground to allow you to uncrouched, you will not be able to until there is enough space. With the bhop you just did though, you will gradually fly up away from the ground :
Image

Then, where you are high enough, the game commits a terrible mistake : it allows your character to uncrouch ! Look at the pitcure : your legs are now back in the trigger and touching the ground a second time :
Image

Since you are touching the ground, the bhop plugin makes you bhop a second time uncrouched and go out of the trigger :
Image

The result ? you got twice the speed you were supposed to have from the trigger_push. The reason this is easy to do is because you have a relatively large delay to let go the crouch button in order to make the game bhopping you a second time. But you can do more !
Lets take this second situation where the trigger is much more fat than the previous, you are about to land uncrouched in it :
Image

You touch the trigger with your feet :
Image

Then, you crouch. Your hitbox is now outside of the trigger_push :
Image

Then you uncrouch again ! The game will let you uncrouch because there is still enough space between you and the ground below to let you do so. You already touched the trigger twice :
Image

Repeat the process until you have fell enough to make your crouched hitbox touch the trigger :
Image

Then you bhop crouched, and repeat what we practiced on scenario number 1. But here, you don’t just leave uncrouched, you keep crouching and uncrouching until your uncrouched hitbox gets outside of the trigger_push :
Image

See how much speed we got here ? You only have a few ticks to do this in-game though, which makes it very technical and almost random to do. It definitely should not be consider the same as normal speedrunning though, so here is my suggestion :

Implement a !cboost command. When playing on normal, you cannot cboost anything because you will have set triggers to prevent people from having too much speed after certain boosts (will take some tweaking). For bonuses like surf_fast b1 and surf_aircontrol b1, you will have to put triggers every to often to make sure people’s speed doesn’t get over a certain amount. You will put triggers like this to every boostes. All of them ! All the maps !! No one will cboost on earth...unless they type !cboost.
Typing !cboost makes your timer change. Now your pr will be registered on the cboost !top and not on the regular !top. You will be able to cboost all the boostes as good as you want/can and it will count for this special category. We even can extend this category to maps with a telehop feature or a boost at start. The cboost top will be the one where people start at 3500 u/s and the not cboost one will be the one doing it like the map intended players to play(like on surf_utopia_njv, surf_retroartz, surf_odyssey_fix, etc…)
That way, everything is separated and no one feels like its unfair since its a thing that takes a lot of practice to master and that each style can be rewarded differently. I don’t know how you would reward a cboost wr point wise but we could ask the community about it with implementing the suggestion 1. . What we need is to make things separated so everything is clear and makes sense to everyone.
12. Edit 19/07/2015: Make surfing categories: normal, Conga and cboost (requires 11. To be implemented)
Spoiler
Edit 19/07/2015: After some discussions with malt, all the angled categories are not addressed to many people on resurfed, they are very hard to implement and its not even 100% accurate so you can cheat it with binds. I still think though that conga surfing and crouch-boost surfing have their place in the timer though.

I think we should have our timer registering times done with different angles and challenges with all the angles for people who are bored or just different. Conga surfing is surprisingly interesting since it is W-only with a slow turn speed. I have reached the 4th ramps of a few maps with conga surfing. Maybe then people will try to make later maps designed to be surfed with conga, so maybe it should be something to give a shot to. So in my opinion all these categories have their place in our timer. I don’t know how it should be rewarded with points, but we will use the suggestion 1. to let the community decide what is the best.
13. Implementing a race/duel feature to our timer !race
Spoiler
This is an exciting idea many of us had once. Its even what they do on the tip of the hat charity stream. Races ! Basically, a player can create a race by typing !race, then choosing the start area, the stages to do and where the finish is. He can also put a name on it. The start can be the start of the map, or of a stage, but it can also be a !sl spot previously saved on the server. You can chose to pick the stages you want, in any order (if you even set a certain order for them, as it can also be free for the player to complete them in any order) and as many time as you want people to complete each one of them. The finish of the race can be the end of the map, a checkpoint/stage if the people in question are not able to complete the map for example or even a custom checkpoint previously created by a player (requires 9. to be implemented).
Once the player created the race, it will make an announcement on the server to say what the race is called, where it starts and where is ends, etc. Then the other player can type !race to either create an other one or join a current race that is occurring at any time (you can join a race that already started if you want, you will just have to catch up to them). Then, once all the people have joined, each has to type a command to say they are ready to fight ! Then the timer teleports all the racers at the same time to the start zone and the race starts. First player to reach the end wins. Race ends when the last player arrived.
If you are inspired, you can even put more challenge by setting up a time limit or a fail limit. You can do a sudden death race where 20 players play but have to no fail once or else they lose. The winner in this case is the last player who did not fail or just arrived first.
If you are even more inspired, you could replicate what mario kart does and add power ups to spice the game. You can freeze, slap, kill, drunk the other players if you get the right power up, which can help you winning when you weren’t hoping to !
As you can see, many possibilities ! We could even create maps designed for races which can give you (with the timer plugin) power ups by going through certain circles or by surfing the « ? » on the yellow ramp for example.
A !race_status command should be added to display the state of the race, like who is where and who is in the lead for example, which can even be used for the tip of the hat charity stream during the event.
There should also be a !retry command in case the race starts from a place that is not the start of the map and you failed and still want to compete. Typing that commands teleports you to the start of the race/stage, but adds one fail to your fail count.
Winning or losing a race should not give points to anyone on the server, its just for fun.

Map tiers
14. Include more criteria in the current tiering system
Spoiler
I personally think that the current tier system we use is obsolete. What are tiers used for ? To quantify how difficult a ma pis compared to an other. What makes a map difficult compared to an other ? It depends on what makes a map hard or not. What makes a map hard or not ? No one ever asked this question.
Well, this question is very important in difficulty quantifying. « What makes a map hard or not ? ». I came up with one of the answer possible that is maybe not the best, but that also the reason I am telling you about it. A surfing map is hard relatively to how hard you have to focus on retaining speed to clear it, how precise you have to enter and exit surf ramps in order to still keep going and a last criteria that I couldn’t describe by any other word than reflexes. Reflexes for me quantify how fast you have to react to what the map throws you in the face while surfing it. Overall, you have 4 criteria into the map tiering : the tier, the speed, the angle and the reflexes. Lets give the 3 added criteria a number from 1 easy to 4 very hard.
Lets take 3 examples :
Surf_utopia_njv :
Tier : 1
Speed : you don’t have to focus on keeping speed since most of the ramp are going down, giving you speed. So the speed here would be 1.
Angle : if you aim too low, of course you will fall off the ramp. But if you aim too high, most of the the time there will be an other ram plate to catch you. The angle here would be 1.
Reflexes : most of the ramps you have to use can be seen from a distance without any surprise. The reflexes would be 1.
Result : Tier 1 (1, 1, 1).

Surf_overgrowth2 :
Tier : 5
Speed : this map gives you speed-cap on many ramp and the ramps are big for most of them. Speed isn’t a problem, so it is 1.
Angle : you have to be careful to how high you flick off ramps because you may not reach the next ramp if you aim too high or too low. Angle is 3.
Reflexes : You rarely ever see the next ramp from the previous one, so you kind of have to fly and hope for a ramp, then quickly react to land on it right. This feeling can be removed by learning the map. Reflexes 2.
Result : Tier 5 (1, 3, 2)

Surf_tronic_njv :
Tier : 5
Speed : Speed here isn’t you main focus since you don’t need to keep that much to land on the next ramp. Speed 1.
Angle : you have to really be careful to where you aim when entering and exiting ramps if you want to not hit obstacles. Angle is 4.
Reflexes : each run you almost have to improvise before you go very fast in tiny rooms and have to dodge to not hit obstacles and keep going. Reflexes is 4.
Result : Tier : 5 (1, 4, 4)

Again, speed, angle and reflexes are examples. You can for example add the criteria time, which can quantify how long on average you have to surf to complete the map/stage without failing.

But why this tier system instead ? Because I think the current one isn’t relevant enough. Each surfer has his own style and is better at certain types of map than on other types. For example, for someone who isn’t really smooth to keep all the speed, but has tons of reflexes and precise movements, then he is capable of doing surf_tronic_njv even though his hardest map he did was surf_vale. Tiers are a way to inform a player how hard a map is, but it should also tell him why it is hard. I am tired of people saying « I can’t beat any tier 4 because its too hard » when it makes no sense to say that. If you are good at getting and keeping speed, and have precise angles, but are bad are dodging obstacle, you are absolutely capable of beating surf_overgrowth, even though that map is tier 4. I want with this suggestion to make tiers mean something and giving them sense.
15. [IMPLEMENTED]Allow the community to vote and update the map tiers (require 1. to be implemented)
Spoiler
Edit 19/07/2015: tordana said that posting a suggestion on the forum is also enough if you want to report an irrelevant tier. it does not require a dedicated timer feature.

Edit 20/07/2015: I changed the formulation of this suggestion due to a discussion with not_a_zombie which revealed that this one not reflecting what I wanted to communicate. Thank you not_a_zombie for pointing it out!

Tiers are a number from 1 to 6 to basically judge how hard a map is compared to the other ones.The problem is that if at a date we decide to say that a map is tier 1 and that one is tier 6, then that will cause problems for later. The problems are caused by the fact the the community is making progress and improving at surfing in general, making through the process more challenging maps. So in the old referential, maps that are harder are of course tier 6, and the easiest tier 1. But then later, people make tier 4 maps that are harder than old tier 5 maps, and so on.

So my mind about that is that we should be able to report some tiers that seem out of place because maps on the tier below are harder or maps on the tier above are easier. So I think there should be a way somewhere to suggest a new tier on a map in-game or on the forums so other people can say their thoughts about them and make them more relevant together as a community would do. Accordingly, maybe it can have for consequences to make maps switch from a server to an other because its too hard or because its too easy.
Map management

16. [IMPLEMENTED] Put back on the server maps that count on the timer, like surf_kitsune surf_life_of_duck
Spoiler
Thats one of the reasons you should implement 1. You are removing maps without even telling people the reasons, and when you do so, you make sure they still give points to people who completed it before and not for the new comers. I think this is a bad attitude and that these maps should be put back to the servers. They are no broken. There is no reason to remove a map that is completable. Its people’s job to not play a map they don’t want to play by not voting for it. If you have something wrong with one map (it killed your parents or whatever), please ask the community about your concerns then take the decision accordingly.
17. [IMPLEMENTED] Fixing or redoing surf_christmas and surf_telstar
Spoiler
I heard malt said that there was something wrong with the triggering in inside these maps which made the timer unstable when playing them. They both are very nice map that everyone wants to see on the server, so even if it means you have to make some tradeoff, please remove what is wrong and add them to the server because people really want to play them and its holidays. (Suggestion supported by at least 50 other people).
18. Add surf_delusion, surf_bob and surf_lodypreview to the server
Spoiler
The reason surf_delusion and surf_bob are not on the server is because on surf_delusion, the stage order is picked randomly at the map start, and since the timer we have is not flexible regarding the order you have to complete the stage it does not work that well. You indeed are not allowed to beat stage 3, then stage 2 to finish with a valid run. Same thing with surf_bob there there are shortcuts allowing you to skip stages. My suggestion is to make these map both linear with one checkpoint which is the end. These are both very short maps, and if that all it takes to be able to play them on the server I personally do not mind. For surf_lodypreview, I did not understand what was wrong with it, just that tordana didn’t want to implement it to the server because 1. Isn’t implemented. I hope he will add it soon or at least give us reasons.
19. [IMPLEMENTED] Use a Stripper to remove moving objects from maps and make them _static versions
Spoiler
Maps sometimes have things that are moving in it, like surf_funhouse, surf_liberation or surf_element_beta. What people do it to tell a friend to stay at the end of a stage to leave the door open and that way beat the stage world record or map world record. Sometimes, moving and rotating object can arrange you or ruin your run because you arrived at the wrong movement. All of these moving things have to be anticipated differently according to the ping you have. And if there is something surfers hate, it is inconsistency. So I think re-making some maps with object that do not move can make the world better for everyone even though it sacrifices the map design a bit. This suggestion is here to ask is such maps would be tolerated on the server and does not ask you the admins to operate the changes on the .bsp maps by yourself. I also ask if there are plugin that remove doors and freeze everything without touching the map file.

Server chat announcement

20. [IMPLEMENTED] Improve the obsolete announcements in the chat to make them adapted to the audience on the server(Edit 19/07/2015: Its partially implemented on the European server thank to Epi)
Spoiler
This is one of the biggest flaws of Resurfed : it does not have announcement to announce useful or news relative to what is happening and how features work. Here are the main messages which are :

[ReSurfed] - This server uses Jukebox plugin. Type !jb to see commands or stop listening.
Simple, clear, informs a new comer, good to me.

[ReSurfed] - Can't beat a stage? Type !s # to skip to a stage of your choosing. (e.g. !s 3)
The purpose of it is good, but I’ll explain in the next suggestion how it can be improved.

[ReSurfed] - Type !top to view map records.
Good.

[ReSurfed] - ATTENTION We dont surf on your trade server, don't trade on our surf server. An admin can, and probably will kick/ban you for trading.
This message is obsolete. Let me tell you why. This message comes from the it servers, but the it servers had something we on Resurfed don’t have : a irc hooked to 5+ servers. So of course if someone start to spam the chat on one server, all the 4 other servers gets polluted instantly, sot hey couldn’t afford to have someone spamming the chat. The most recurrent reason of the spam in general was trade advertisement at that time and « Ubercharge Popped » binds. So one way to make the people who were saying trade requests in the public chat was to make this announcement, since people came to these servers to play mainly and trading was considered more like a spam for the server.
But today, in 2015, we have a irc which links 2 servers which have rarely more than 10 people on each at the same time and easy servers which both have a capacity of 32 players. That is clearly not enough to consider spamming as a main trouble, and even less a reason to say its trading’s fault.
The issue is that this message does not tell the players to not type in the chat trade advertisement because it floods it and that people are there to mainly play the game and are less probable to be interested by a trade.
This message says that trading is not allowed, speaking of trading is not allowed, advertising trades is not allowed, surfing on trade servers is impossible (even though I surfed many times on trade servers running surf maps), receiving traded items while being on the server is not allowed and joke trading is not allowed. The only thing that is not allowed in the rules after clarification with tordana is advertising trades in the chat, and that will get you gagged at most, not banned. Conclusion : this message is wrong. Its so wrong that it has bad consequences.
When in the chat someone receives items, everyone in the chat just say « Ban ! » or « Report ! » or « No trading ! », joking or not. Which in facts makes in the chat more spam than if this announcement never existed. So here is what you have to remember tordana : this message is a lie, it makes people spam the chat and it spams the chat itself because these 3 lines get types in the chat every 5 minutes, which is the exact opposite of the reason it was created at first: preventing people from spamming the chat.


So, there are 4 announcement messages. With these, if you are a beginner, you at least know how to listen to music, cancel your run by skipping stages, check top times of people so good that you will never even get close to them and know that your whole family will die if you dare doing items exchange on the server. In my opinion, this is not enough. We should have more announcement about the feature this server provides and the news of what is going on to better implement suggestion 1. . Here are a few example of what you could put on the server :

Chat spamming isn’t tolerated
Do not feel like you have to vote if you are unexperimented or indecisive
Use !sl and !tl to make and resume saves (works in spectator team too)
Ranks are not what matter, having fun is the best way to improve.
New to surfing ? Type !surf to watch the surfing tutorial by Streebee
Type !ve to extend the current map for 10 minutes
Type !p to check your profile
Type !commands to see all the commands available
Etc

Announcement are supposed to explain someone who never played on resurfed how things work. He should not have to learn everything eventually by hearing conversations with other players.
21. [IMPLEMENTED, but still showing on not staged maps] Can't beat a stage? Type !s x to skip to a stage of your choosing (x being the number of the stage, e.g. !s 3).
Spoiler
This formulation is more clearing my opinion, as I have seen many people typing « !s # » or « !s #3 ». Also if possible, make this message only appear on staged maps and not linear ones because if this message is seen for the first time on a linear map, people will get confused.
Last edited by Shadow Sheep on Thu May 05, 2016 9:14 pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Shadow Sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:51 am

Part 2! Don't worry: its the last one!


Server Commands

22. Add a command that allows a player to see a specific time with as many digit as he want
Spoiler
Sometimes, in very precise situation, a cent of a second isn’t enough to clearly understand who was slower or faster. Which is why I think that a command that displays for a player all the digit can be handy. Right now, the only way to know is to call tordana who goes into the database and check the time in question to say all the digits in question. I think that there is nothing to hide and that there is nothing wrong with giving people access to that command.
23. Add a command which allows the player to see the recent points variations on his profile
Spoiler
Basically, add a command or a tab in the profile menu which shows the player where he gained or lost points recently. This could be pretty useful to see a player’s evolution during the past week or to check how many top 10/ group points you lost during the last 2 months. I don’t ask to add a command which show every variation of rank in every top, even if that could be one. Just record and display the changes which made the player gain or lose points and display them into 2 menus : 1. Points gained, 2. Point lost. For example: "surf_classics group1->group2, 38 points lost".
24. Make the !teleport or !r commands have a sided parameter
Spoiler
There are map where you prefer to start from the right spawn, some other where you prefer the left one. Sometimes the blue and red spawns are completely separated and you always get sent to one you hate or to both with a long walking to do before surfing again (like on surf_torrent_njv). To fix this, a parameter should be added to the !teleport option like !teleport 1 or !teleport 2 to chose the side of the stage, 1 being left or blue and 2 being right or red. Then memorize by default the last one used so you only have to type the parameter once, like for !sl and !tl commands.
25. Implement a !end command
Spoiler
Have you ever wanted to see the end of maps you know you will never complete because surfing with the feet is too hard ? Did you ever want to congratulate your friend for doing the map with a partner taunt, but are not at the end of the map to do so ? This !end command would allow the player to get teleported to the ending platform of the last stage of the map or at the end of the bonuses to allow them to see the ending (!end_bonus 1). !end can take a left and right parameter too (if 24. gets implemented) for maps like surf_lt_omnific and surf_rainbow_njv.
26. Put an effective command to mute a specific player or all the player on the current server and irc
Spoiler
This is self explanatory, we need a working hidechat command on this server. All the current one does is hiding the message you type from yourself, which isn’t really useful for anything really. So we need a command that can mute a specific player if only one guy is annoying in the chat or all the server if you are easily disturbed, but need to see timer and server announcement. If the conversation the other people are having on the irc server isn’t interesting to read or if there is just someone typing in caps, you should also be able to mute only one person through irc, or several people.
27. Put a !votenextmap command to change the nextmap if set
Spoiler
Sometimes, you vote a map for someone, then he leaves and you have to play the map he wanted and not you. For situations like this, a !votenextmap command could be useful to change the next map to something else without rtving the next one. it would work like the !ve command, but what !vnxt would do is making an other vote like the one triggering 3 minutes before the map ends so people can nominate and re-vote for the next map (with a don't change option).
28. [IMPLEMENTED] Put a /hop command
Spoiler
I don’t personally mind, but I just find weird that only this command can’t be hidden to the other people with a simple /. It doesn’t work and you have to type !hop instead. I think this isn’t hard to do either, but I can be wrong. Please try to implement that anyway.
29. Make the !resume feature save a run even after the map changed
Spoiler
I think it could be nice to be able to resume a run you stopped on when the server crashed, when you had to leave or if a random person came to rtv the map you were on. When after playing again on the map you were on, just type !resume and you are back on last stage of omnific with a 3+ hours run without having to redo all the impossible stages before. Here, i say omnific for you elite people to understand how hard it is to lose a run on a very hard map, but it could be on surf_boring for a beginner player who is just stuck and can’t figure out how to clear the stage he is on. I think having a !resume save would help everybody and give this nice touch that Resurfed really is the server meant for them. Ideally, it should work so if both advanced server are on the same map, you can leave one to go to the other and be able to resume your run instantly.
30. Add a !thirdperson command
Spoiler
Edit 19/07/2015: Having thirdperson on the server requires to modify the sv_cheats value to 1 on it. Since cheats would be on all the time on the server, we would need to block every single command that could be accessed by a player so he cannot touch anything. This setup is more likely to leak and create a big mess if people exploit it. So this suggestion is rejected unless we find a way to not have to turn on cheats to do that.

Some people are used to surf with thirdperson on other servers, but they can’t do that on here. I personally think it would help me surfing backward since I would be able to see behind better, but sometimes I just want to see my cute pyro doing a thumb up to someone ♥. So clearly this feature doesn’t hurt anybody. Also, I heard you plan to put for vip people a command for them to surf as any prop or model they want. Don’t you think it would be a shame for them to not even have the chance to see what they are looking like in-game other than from the first perspective ?

Voting

31. Make the !voteextend command pass if enough players left to validate the vote
Spoiler
Edit 04/02/2016: Sometimes, you need one more !ve vote for the map to be extended, and a player leaves. You then have enough votes to extend the map, but yet it does not. The only way to fix it to to have someone on the server sacrify his run in order to save the map. This plugin should really be fixed so it refreshes whenever enough votes are made to pass the extendal condition.
32. Make the idle people not count in votes
Spoiler
On Tempus, when you stay afk for 5 minutes, the server flags you as « Idle ». When being an Idle person, your !ve is not more required to the server, and your rtv isn’t either. Its like if you were not on the server. If the server gets full and someone wants to join, you get kicked out of the server because you are taking a player spot for nothing (if you implement the suggestion 29. , getting kicked would have no impact at all). I think we should have the same feature on resurfed, especially with the new ve system that requires 5 players out of 5 to type !ve to extend:if anyone is afk, the map changes. That is one more reason in my opinions to consider the suggestion 2.
33. Remove the nominating cool-down after a map is played
Spoiler
Yes, you read right : I want the maps to be nominatable right after being played. I think if someone gets rtv’d his map by someone who then leaves because the next map is even worse, we should at least not make the first person who was on the server rtv 5 rotations of maps before allowing him to play the map he was on. If a map has been played for 4 hours anyway, its probable that the players will not want to play it again soon anyway. And from my point of view, its people’s job to not vote a map they do not want to play, even if it just has been played. So please at least try changing it for one week and see if that does not make people happier because I don’t see anything wrong with it. Even if the map you hate the most gets played for 12 hours, the players on the server did choose to play it and you have nothing to say about that since you can launch maps offline or play on the 2 other servers.
34. Remove the !ve limitation and put it as infinite as before
Spoiler
A map gets extended to death for 2 reasons :
-Its a new map, everyone wants to play it and its an experience so fresh that you want to enjoy as much as you can
-Players are hardtrying or in love with a map
None of these two reasons are a wrong excuse to extend the map for 10 minutes. Extending the map for 10 more minutes will not suddenly make it bad or corrupt the server, it will just prevent you from playing something else that you could play offline or on the 2 other server. Out of the 2 reasons I stated which are the most common ones, there are an infinite number of situations where the map not being able to extend would annoy the player and make him never come back because of how unfair it is. Imagine that you are alone on the server, only you should decide what map you should play because the server is literally yours. But nope the map changes because of this !ve limitation. Please change it back tordana : no one likes it ! (I asked a lot of people’s opinion, Nastybutler included).
35. [IMPLEMENTED] Review the new !ve needed rate on servers
Spoiler
I know that you said you wanted the map to be hard to extend because…reasons. But don’t you think here you were a bit too excessive ? When there is 5 players on a server, five !ve are needed, bot included. So of course the map changes and no one can play the map. So please use the 1.suggestion to let us know about your decisions and let us take decisions about a server you barely play on. Please also make it so we can type !ve 10 before then end of the time like before instead of 5 minutes like now because it makes afk people even more lethal to the people who really need an extend.
36. Make a "yes/no" vote happen on the server when someone types rtv/ve/votenextmap in the chat (if a majority of yes, map changes/extends)
Spoiler
Edit 15/07/2015: This would solve all the problems we have with ve and rtv right now. In fact, it would make useless the suggestions 27., 32. 34., the !ve plugin and the !rtv plugin!!!
The concept of ve or rtv is to extend the map if the majority of the server wants to do so. So instead of making people type things in the chat and count them, why not going back to the simplest? A yes/no vote. Its more intuitive since the players are used to vote maps this way and you can have everyone's point of view in 20 seconds. So when someone type !ve or !rtv in the chat, a vote appears on the screen for all the players on the server 'Do you want to change the map to <nextmap>/ Do you want to extend this map for 10 minutes?- 1.No 2.Yes". The majority who wins makes the server change according to the decision taken by the server. This is really the way of voting which makes the most sense to me. In fact, its so effective that it removes the need of the suggestions 31., 32. and 35..

Save locations

37. Make the timer keep track on who did each save
Spoiler
Most players who make saves does it for themselves, and most of time they are not alone on the server. So they actually have to note and remember the number of each save they did to use them or have to try them all until they eventually find the one they want. So please make the !sl feature assign the name of the player to the save so they can type a command to show the list of all the saves they did and pick one from the list without having to do unnecessary efforts.
38. Allow the player to give names to the saves they did (requires 37. to be implemented)
Spoiler
Numbers are great because they are unique. But being able to give a name or a description to a save can also help finding the right save you want to resume on. For example, if I type !rename_sl @34 tricky_shortcut, i twill give to the save 134 I did previously the description « tricky_shortcut », which can help myself and other players on the server to find it easily. I can after resume to this save by typing !tl trick.
39. Make the !sl limitation more flexible
Right now, we have an issue. The maximum number of saves we can do is 256. Once this number is reached, no one can make anymore saves at all. Here are the solutions we came up with to improve this cool feature :
39.a. Make the maximum number of sl way bigger
Spoiler
That is the easiest to do of the solution, the most stupid and lazy, but maybe enough. Just put the max number of save up to 65536. This solution may not be the best if it takes too much memory though so take a look below :
39.b. Allow people to flag their saves as « bad » (requires 37. To be implemented)
Spoiler
Sometimes, it happens that you type save at the wrong moment, accidentally or just are a huge troll who faps his sm_sl bind. Either way, you are making saves that are useless and won’t be useful to anyone. With this feature, you can flag a save as « bad » so if the max number of sl is reached, the « bad » saves can still be erased to allow everyone else to still be able to make saves. Of course, you can only flag your saves and not the ones from the other people.
39.c. make the least used or least frequently used saves erase when the sl list is full
Spoiler
When all the 256 saves are done and no more can be made without erasing the ones already done, make it so the least used or least frequently used sl get erased first to still allow players to make saves.
39.d. Prevent players from spamming the !sl command
Spoiler
You can do one of the two or both to solve this problem:
39.d.1. Put a cool-down delay before allowing the player to make a save again, (1 to 5 seconds is reasonable)
39.d.2. Make the timer actively check if a save is similar to a previous one the player did. Basically, you make the timer check the position, the speed, the aim and the delay between the last save and the new one occurring.
Spoiler
That way, if 2 saves really are too close to each other, the timer will not accept to make an other one. Do not consider this suggestion if it makes the timer have a too big delay between when you try to save and when the save is made and approved by the timer.
39.e. Allow players to manually delete their saves and that way allow other players to save in that sl slot that is now free to use
Spoiler
Also, make it so if a person leaves, his saves gets deleted if he doesn’t come back before 5 minutes unless an other people used them too, in which cased you only delete the ones not touched by other players. The problem of doing that can be that if other people save after, they can get confused by the fact that the numbers of the saves they do are no more consecutive to the ones they were doing so far. But if you implement 38., that should be fine. You can also choose to make other players only save in deleted slots once all the last saves are taken to not create confusing if that does not cause any performance issues (I don’t know if its dynamically created or if it is static).
40. Use the SurfBOT recording device to make saves of one second before you hit the save bind
Spoiler
Edit 15/07/2015: please consider this suggestion as a way to give you the idea in case it can be done in like 2 years of update for some reason. Please focus on implementing the other suggestion instead of focusing on saying that this one can't be done.
Making a save at the precise moment you want to is hard. You have to hit the save bind once you are sure that your position is good, and at the same time make sure that you can resume that save later without having a wall in your face. Most of the time though, the time it takes you to realize that your position is good, saving is too late. So what would be the best to do would be to resume a run like you resume a book or a video in real life : you read the previous page or playback the video a minutes before the moment where you stopped to resume better. Here is the same idea involving the bot or any other recording device you plan to use on resurfed : being able to save in the past. That way, when you make a big jump then land on a ramp, you can save on the ramp and then resume at the big jump. The 1 second delay I did put in the title of this suggestion is arbitrary and should be set by the player according to his reflexes and his setup. You could even set it to 10 second so you can realize you did a good run, fly, fail, sneeze, blow your nose, open the chat and type !sl in it, and still be able to resume your run where you want it to be resumed. I highly doubt this would be doable anytime soon, but I really think it would be really cool to have as a feature.

SurfBOT

41. Allow SurfBOT to not only replay manually recorded demos (note, I know malt that you are not the person in charge of this plugin, but feel free to spread the ideas)
41.a. Allow SurfBOT to replay several demos per maps, like tracks on an album
Spoiler
Here we could do for example :
Track 1 : The Bot shows how the map is supposed to be surfed ( !showme 1)
Track 2 : The Bot shows the easiest way to do the map ( !showme 2)
Track 3 : The Bot shows the Current wr run replayof the map ( !showme 3)
Etc

It should be able to do that for the map and for each stage and bonuses
41.b. Allow the community to record and submit runs.
Spoiler
There are clearly not enough active admins to record runs on 250 maps and 150 bonuses. Anyone should be able to record a run on the map they want. The limit would be one run per Track set in the 41.a. suggestion so there is no flood and everyone still stays ordered. Then the player can choose to submit them from the server. Someone who has the power can then watch and choose what demo is the best to showcase what the category is from the submitted replays. When putting the run on the server, he can credit the name of the user who contributed to make the run.
41.c. If the powerful guy of 41.b. does not want to choose the replays, organize a voting system like on 1. for them to watch and pick what demo is the best for the categories the runs were submitted to.
Spoiler
That way, the community can discuss and decide which runs best represents the showcase for which the runs were submitted.
41.d. Use the voting system of 41.c. to organize contests for some maps
Spoiler
For example, you can organize a contest where the goal is to record a surfing trick and then spray the highest on that wall into a demo recording track specially reserved for this occasion (requires 41.a. to be implemented). For example, organize a contest on track 10 where the goal is to go the furthest on a said map backward (or the fastest if 12. Is implemented).
41.e. Make SurfBOT record the exact key pressing and mouse movement so you can !skeys while watching him
Spoiler
!skeys is a useful command allowing people to see what an other player presses when playing. But since SurfBOT has been made for educational purposes, I think i twill be also interesting to be able to see what the BOT would need to press if it was an actual player doing the run.
41.f. Allow the player to record segmented runs using !sl and !tl
Spoiler
Sometimes, its hard to showcase something the first try. Especially on very long maps. So if we are able to make segmented runs using !sl and !tl, it would allow us to record better quality runs easier. You can also make so several people can record each segment if they are only good at some precise part for example.If the number of times you teleport to a save is counted in the process, then we have everything needed to make a TAS run (see suggestion 3. for more information) except that it will not be as good as if the game was slowed down during the process of making it, it will just be a segmented run.

In-game features

42. [IMPLEMENTED]Reduce the re-spray delay to default
Spoiler
Okay, that « shhhhhhhhhh » noise it was doing when spamming the spray button on surf_it can be annoying because there was literally no re-spray delay. But having a 10 minutes re-spray delay isn’t good either. Sometimes, you use sprays as a landmark on ramp to see where to enter and leave ramps or how high you even went on this wall. If you miss your spray location, you have to wait a very long time before being able to replace it again. Re-spraying however never killed anyone (unless its not safe for work content, in which case this is not tolerated by the servers rules). So please put it back to normal on all the server for once. I saw you once did set it on one server, but as soon as the map changed it went back to 10 minutes (or 5 maybe).
43. [REJECTED]Change the spectating system on the server so you can watch a player with the fov you want
Spoiler
Edit: 19/07/2015: We today are unable to find any way of changing the fov when spectating someone even with existing plugins that are supposed to do so. So unless we suddenly find the solution, I guess we can't fight the game on this point.

People often complain when spectating me because my fov is too weird. I think that if people are disturbed with that, they should be able to spectate people with the fov they are used to. By default, you always watch someone which the field of view the player in question uses. I think there should be a plugin to change that and make it so you can watch people in first person with the fov you desire with a command or something.
44. [IMPLEMENTED]Remove the « Scrrritch » noise playing when taking « fall damage »
Spoiler
On surf_it, they had a plugin called Jumpassist which removed all the fall damage noise and I was finding it better that way. I think no one really uses this noise anyway and that its not something you want to hear in general. So if you can find a way to remove this fall damage noise, it would be awesome.
45. Allow slower classes to be played on the surf servers
Spoiler
Soldier, demoman and heavy really have a nice character design and adding them to the server could add some colors to the game and also some... challenge ! I have always wondered if I could complete surf_sinister as heavy and think that could do a fun race theme (if 13. gets implemented) of for contests (if 41.d. gets implemented).

I am fully aware that the suggestions 9., 24., 26. , 29. , 37. , 38. and 41. and 43. will require more resources regarding the space of storage for private data for the players on each map. But I really do think these ideas can give you some way to improve the servers with nice features.

I am thanking you deeply for reading through all of this ! Please apologize if everything isn't correctly said or spelled as english isn't my native language. This list took me 2 months to elaborate and 12 hours straight to type. I want to thank everyone in the Resurfed community for giving me a quarter of the suggestions you read above and hope that this will eventually make things change for the best on our way to our dream : Having an enjoyable experience with the community when playing on the servers.

I invite you to post a message in this post if you want to discuss the ideas suggested as some feedback would be strongly appreciated or if you have ideas to add to the list I have.



***



List of Suggestions posted after this post has been done

46. Having more color choice for the timer plugin Suggested by multiple people

46.a. Having more color choice for the theme of the timer in the !options menu Suggested by Insomnia (10/07/2015)
Spoiler
I support this idea by the fact that we only have a few colors available to show stages and levels in general. It would be nice if we could have something else than green and blue, like orange, pink, brown etc. What if we could even let the player decide the color by saving a hexcode in his parameter? What if we could let the player decide which stage of which map can be displayed in what color? (for example, on surf_lt_omnific, having stage 8 showing in pink, stage 14 in blue and stage 16 in red!!!!!!
46.b. Having color choices for the surf hud Suggested by gako (09/09/2015)
Spoiler
I think it would be nice to have an other color to chose than the default orange on the screen when surfing. It doesn't have to be uni color either, like for example, you could display the title of the data in white and the value itself in various colors. Same goes for the hudconfig. I hope all of this will be possible after the timer rewrite, even though its not necessarily a life changer thing (well, it is sort of actually).
47. Adding a command to navigate forward/backward through saves Suggested by not_a_zombie (10/07/2015)
Spoiler
Basically, a command that if used makes you use the next tl in the list. For example, if my set tl is 326, typing !tl_next will make me teleport to the tl 327. Make this command also work for the list of saves done by a player (needs suggestion 37 to be implemented). For example, if I did the saves 64, 78 and 129 and my current tl is 78, typing !tl_previous would teleport me to the 64 one and !tl_next to the 129 one. If not_a_zombie is on the server and did the saves 26 and 54 and I am currently using his save 26, typing !tl_next would teleport me to the save 54. Like the !tele command allows the player to define a save by default to be teleported to, a !tele playername should be available to choose the player per default to teleport to (if not set, teleport to your saves by default).
48. Adding a command allowing us to see how frequently maps are being played Suggested by Shadow Sheep (10/07/2015)
Spoiler
Most of the times, when I look for a map in the nominating list, I try to nominate a map that is decent and not played that often because I know that most people would enjoy it more. What i usually to do is just looking through all the maps in the nominating list and ask myself if I played the map recently or not. I think that a feature that I would call !freqmap would be cool in that case. Basically, it would say how many time the maps have been on the server the last 30 days (or whatever period) by displaying a list in the order from the least played to the most played maps. So for example, if I am hesitating between surf_coralis and surf_happyhands4, and in the list I see that coralis has been played 3 times and happyhands4 15 times, I would in this case prefer to pick surf_coralis.
To so extend, you can use the mechanism of this feature to create so statistics about how the maps are played on the server. I know that in the front page of this forum there are clickable icons with the servers in them, telling people how much a map is played recently. But the problem with it is the it only displays the most played map, and for the application of where I want to use this feature, knowing the most played maps is close to useless.
49. Adding features for donators Suggested by multiple people(16/07/2015)

49.a. Allow people to spray paint on map brushes Suggested by mr.gmmbearz (16/07/2015)
Spoiler
Allows people to spray colored paints on walls and stuff. mr.gmmbearz told me that this ksf feature allowed chipzy to use the perfect trajectory on a ramp.
49.b. Allow donators to have a trail Suggested by _one (16/07/2015)
Spoiler
I don't think you can hide trails that easily since they are special entities. Also, I think that the trails overlapping on SurfBOT are the reason my fps drain when seeing him on a rendered distance on the server. But in _one's opinion, having the possibility to change the colors in the chat are a bit weak advantage to encourage donations, so I throw this suggestion in the list anyway.

50. When skipping a stage, replace the message it says from "You have teleported forward in the map. Timer disabled." to "You have teleported forward in the map.
Spoiler
Map run cancelled." Suggested by mr.gmmbearz (27/07/2015)
It indeed makes more sense to change the message to that because typing !s 3 isn't equivalent to typing !s 3, then !timer since you still get timed on the stage in question. So I guess replacing this message can remove a lot of confusion for newer people to the server.

51. Display map information in votes, nominate menus and !hop menus Suggested by Multiple people (31/07/2015)

51.a Putting the tier number of maps in votes Suggested by Mazzo (30/07/2015)
Spoiler
How many times did it happen to people to vote for a map with a sexy name (*cough* *cough* surf_minecraft) and then realize its an entirely too hard map for them to play on? Ksf has this feature, and if possible, maybe it would be nice to have it here, so people know what they are doing when voting. This of course should be added with announcements in the chat clarifying what tiers are and how they work.
51.b. Putting the number of stages a map has in votes (1=linear) Suggested by Eternal (07/08/2015)
Spoiler
Some people don't like linear maps that much. And 15 seconds is sometimes too short to type !mi <mapname> of all the 5 maps in the vote, especially if they are long to type, if you are in the middle of a surf run and if you don't know how to use a keyboard properly. So a solution to this problem would be to show these parameters directly in the vote through a number that people will commonly consider as the number of stages in the map after a few map rotations.
52. Change the scoreboard so it shows where people are in the map (it can be used for races too if 13. is implemented) Suggested by Mazzo (31/07/2015)
Spoiler
It would be faster than typing !cp someone in the chat to see everyone's position. This feature is implemented in Tempus CSS and according to Mazzo its just a plugin to setup.
53. Create a dedicated tier for the bonus/group of bonuses of a map Suggested by not_a_zombie (06/08/2015)
Spoiler
Let's be honest, the tier set for the map isn't really telling anything about the tier of the bonuses. For example, surf_reprise bonuses are not tier 2, surf_airflow bonus is not tier 4 and surf_whoknows bonus is not tier 4. So a dedicated tier category should be created to describe how hard a bonus is. Bonuses in general are as worth of interest as the map itself, even though they are most of the times on a smaller scale or just different.
54. [IMPLEMENTED] Create a third Intermediate server Suggested by pizzabooty (06/10/2015)
Spoiler
The easy server is supposed to run easy maps, right? But what if you are completly new to surfing and fall on a map called lets say surf_inspire, well even if you listen to the people in the chat insulting you and telling you to type !surf and watch the video, if you have never surfed, you won't make it to checkpoint 1. The idea is so to create an other server running exclusively beginner friendly maps in order to help them getting familiar with the surfing mechanism. Then, we could mix the easier maps of the advanced server and the harder maps of the former easy server in order to create an Intermediate server, allowing them to practice their basics and also allowing them to become good enough to go for the advanced maps (in gneral, once you have completed a few tier 3, you are pretty much ready to attempt the harder maps). This idea will now solve the problem of competent people on the advanced server telling a new person to go on surf_exocube in order to learn the basics of surfing.
55. Allow players to have their timer to compare with anyone's time (or to nobody), not only with the current world record Suggested by Shadow Sheep (02/03/2016)
Spoiler
When you play any map with your timer on, it compares the time you did when completing levels or reaching checkpoints with the current world record, or your own personnal record if you have one. But what if all you want to do is to get to group 2 for a map? What if you are just aiming for a top 10? What if you are indeed going for the world record, but all the splits the world record holder did are less representative of a good world record run than a lower ranked one? What if you just want to compare to your friends and compete with them?

What would be nice would be to have a !compare @25 command for example to compare your run with the person who has the rank number 25. That way, you can go for a specific goal, and also be able to see green numbers in the chat even though you are not going for the world record, because you are succesful in reaching your goal ! It should also be possible to have that specific command available for stages and bonus times if you want to compare for someone who does the same route than you for example. There should also be an option for the people like me, who don't care about the other people's times and ranks and have it not compare to anything by my personal record in the chat when I am playing, which allows people to only go for self improvement (which is an acceptable goal to have too).
56. Allow players to have direct access to their group points Bracket through the !profile menu Suggested by Farron. (27/04/2016)
Spoiler
Having to type !pr, then !mi for all the maps you have completed gets rapidly tedious to do if you want to keep track of your group points in so maps. Especialy if you do that every day. So having an actual shortcut in the !profile menu like for consulting completed maps and top 10 maps completiong would be a very useful addition.


State of the list
(last update: 06/05/2016)

Implemented/Fixed:
  • 1. More dialog between Admins and players
  • 3. Developing a Tool Assited Speedrun plugin (nolem made a tas plugin and some other visualizer tools for rocket jumping jump.tf thread with TAS videos
  • 6. Fix the maps which used to have the cvar sv_maxvelocity set to higher values than 3500 u/s
  • 15. Allow the community to vote and update the map tiers (require 1. to be implemented)
  • 16. Put back on the server maps that count on the timer, like surf_kitsune surf_life_of_duck
  • 17. Fixing or redoing surf_christmas and surf_telstar
  • 20. Improve the obsolete announcements in the chat to make them adapted to the audience on the server
  • 21. Can't beat a stage? Type !s x to skip to a stage of your choosing (x being the number of the stage, e.g. !s 3). (still showing on linear maps though, which is too bad)
  • 26. Put an effective command to mute a specific player or all the player on the current server and irc(!hidechat works now)
  • 28. Put a /hop command
  • 35. Review the new !ve needed rate on servers
  • 42. Reduce the re-spray delay to default
  • 44. Remove the « Scrrritch » noise playing when taking « fall damage »
  • 54. Create a third Intermediate server Suggested by pizzabooty (06/10/2015)
Not going to happen/Rejected:
  • 43. Change the spectating system on the server so you can watch a player with the fov you want
To-do list:
  • Resurfed Community
    • 2. Fusionning Tempus and Resurfed into one same community
  • Timer plugin suggestions
    • 4. Update the Australian servers to the timer of the other servers
    • 5. Put a Z velocity limit at Start zones with speed limitations
    • 7. Put info_teleport_destination of the Resurfed Timer at least one unit above the ground
    • 8. Create a !show_trigger to show color coded vertices of the triggers
    • 9. Allow the player to create his own checkpoints in the map (requires 8. to be implemented)
    • 10. Add to the the server a more advanced checkpoint system like the speedrunners use on twitch.tv
      • 10.a. Make the checkpoints record on both staged and linear maps on a successful map run
      • 10.b. Gold = Best personal Checkpoint, Green = you are still ahead, Red = You are behind
      • 10.c. Allow the player to make his pr compare to a player’s pr instead of the world record
      • 10.d. Make the summary of all the checkpoint pr a player has to see his best potential pr
      • 10.e. make the summary of all the checkpoints of everyone to see what is the best potential wr
    • 11. Make crouchboosting a separated category in the timer
    • 12. Make surfing categories: normal, Conga and cboost (requires 11. To be implemented)
    • 13. Implementing a race/duel feature to our timer !race
  • Map tiers
    • 14. Include more criteria in the current tiering system
    • 18. Add surf_delusion, surf_bob and surf_lodypreview to the server
    • 19. Use a Stripper to remove moving objects from maps and make them _static versions
  • Server chat announcements
    • (none)
  • Server commands
    • 22. Add a command that allows a player to see a specific time with as many digit as he want
    • 23. Add a command which allows the player to see the recent points variations on his profile
    • 24. Make the !teleport or !r commands have a sided parameter
    • 25. Implement a !end command
    • 26. Put an effective command to mute a specific player or all the player on the current server and irc(can't hide irc/ someone through irc without hiding server chat)
    • 27. Put a !votenextmap command to change the nextmap if set
    • 29. Make the !resume feature save a run even after the map changed
    • 30. Add a !thirdperson command
  • Voting
    • 31. Make the !voteextend command pass if enough players left to validate the vote
    • 32. Make the idle people not count in votes
    • 33. Remove the nominating cool-down after a map is played
    • 34. Remove the !ve limitation and put it as infinite as before
    • 36. Make a "yes/no" vote happen on the server when someone types rtv/ve/votenextmap in the chat (if a majority of yes, map changes/extends)
  • Save locations
    • 37. Make the timer keep track on who did each save
    • 38. Allow the player to give names to the saves they did (requires 37. to be implemented)
    • 39. Make the !sl limitation more flexible
      • 39.a. Make the maximum number of sl way bigger
      • 39.b. Allow people to flag their saves as « bad » (requires 37. To be implemented)
      • 39.c. make the least used or least frequently used saves erase when the sl list is full
        • 39.d.1. Put a cool-down delay before allowing the player to make a save again, (1 to 5 seconds is reasonable)
        • 39.d.2. Make the timer actively check if a save is similar to a previous one the player did.
      • 39.e. Allow players to manually delete their saves and that way allow other players to save in that sl slot that is now free to use
    • 40. Use the SurfBOT recording device to make saves of one second before you hit the save bind
  • SurfBOT
    • 41. Allow SurfBOT to not only replay manually recorded demos
      • 41.a. Allow SurfBOT to replay several demos per maps, like tracks on an album
      • 41.b. Allow the community to record and submit runs.
      • 41.c. If the powerful guy of 41.b. does not want to choose the replays, organize a voting system like on 1. for them to watch and pick what demo is the best for the categories the runs were submitted to.
      • 41.d. Use the voting system of 41.c. to organize contests for some maps
      • 41.e. Make SurfBOT record the exact key pressing and mouse movement so you can !skeys while watching him
      • 41.f. Allow the player to record segmented runs using !sl and !tl
  • In-game features
    • 45. Allow slower classes to be played on the surf servers
  • Suggestions posted after the submission of the list
    • 46. Having more color choice for the timer plugin Suggested by multiple people
      • 46.a. Having more color choice for the theme of the timer in the !options menu Suggested by Insomnia (10/07/2015)
      • 46.b. Having color choices for the surf hud Suggested by gako (09/09/2015)
    • 47. Adding a command to navigate forward/backward through saves Suggested by not_a_zombie (10/07/2015)
    • 48. Adding a command allowing us to see how frequently maps are being played Suggested by Shadow Sheep (10/07/2015)
    • 49. Adding features for donators Suggested by multiple people(16/07/2015)
      • 49.a. Allow people to spray paint on map brushes Suggested by mr.gmmbearz (16/07/2015)
      • 49.b. Allow donators to have a trail Suggested by _one (16/07/2015)
    • 50. When skipping a stage, replace the message it says from "You have teleported forward in the map. Timer disabled." to "You have teleported forward in the map. Map run cancelled." Suggested by mr.gmmbearz (27/07/2015)
    • 51. Display map information in votes, nominate menus and !hop menus Suggested by Multiple people (31/07/2015)
      • 51.a Putting the tier number of maps in votes Suggested by Mazzo (30/07/2015)
      • 51.b. Putting the number of stages a map has in votes (1=linear) Suggested by Eternal (07/08/2015)
    • 52. Change the scoreboard so it shows where people are in the map (it can be used for races too if 13. is implemented) Suggested by Mazzo (31/07/2015)
    • 53. Create a dedicated tier for the bonus/group of bonuses of a map Suggested by not_a_zombie (06/08/2015)
    • 55. Allow players to have their timer to compare with anyone's time (or to nobody), not only with the current world record Suggested by pizzabooty (02/03/2016)
    • 56. Allow players to have direct access to their group points Bracket through the !profile menu Suggested by Farron. (27/04/2016)
Last edited by Shadow Sheep on Thu May 05, 2016 9:16 pm, edited 39 times in total.
mr.gmmbearz
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:32 am

Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by mr.gmmbearz » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:08 am

great ideas ! :)
Last edited by mr.gmmbearz on Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zayannah
Posts: 131
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Zayannah » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:00 am

Image

Seriously though I got to like point 30 and then ^ happened. I'll make time to read the rest at some point but something to say for now, A LOT of these points just can't be done either at the moment or at all because of the tech of the server and the way the timer works.
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tordana
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Posts: 281
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by tordana » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:08 am

Let me say Sheep- THANK YOU for typing this all up in one place. It's a hell of a lot more likely that some of this gets done when it's all laid out like that.

As Zay said, there are a number of them that are either impossible or are technically possible but would require a ridiculous amount of coding work for marginal gain.

I don't have time right now to type out detailed responses, but I'm posting this message so you know I did read the whole thing. And I will get a response to each of your suggestions, hopefully tomorrow.
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Shadow Sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:18 am

Wow, thank you Tordana for your reply.

Yeah, I tried to make it look tidy, so you only have to read in detail the first time, and then reading the green lines would be enough to remember the general idea.

I know that right now, many of the suggestions I did may not be doable, but I am thinking in long term. By that I mean that if you develop the server and the timer later, you can do it in a way that could help later the implementation of some of the features on my list that wouldn't be possible to implement right now.

Also for everyone again, don't read this all at once, this is just far too much to assimilate in one shot (for me at least it would be).

Keep also in mind that some of the suggestions are not necessarily from me, even know I found that it was a good thing to put them in this post.

What I pictured the usage of this topic was to have a list where you can come and check what is done and what is still to do or can't be done at the moment and see in real time the progress you make.

Feel free to ask me in your replies to reformulate or to develop if anything isn't clear in what I said (which is very probable in my opinion).
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asscmalt
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by asscmalt » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:32 pm

As of right now I've been actively working on a timer rewrite for the past two weeks. I'm expecting it to be caught up with the current timer by the end of august. Once thats finished some of these things will be easier to implement / already implemented. Since you put a ton of effort into this, i'll go through every point.
1. More dialog between Admins and players
In reference to timer updates, I don't think thats ever been a major issue? When I was doing the rank system rewrite (the last major update in a while), I put a post up 3 months ahead of time. Also I always post changes in the update thread. When I do put up updates without telling anyone, its usually a change CGN (csgo server running this timer) requested, and me trying to keep timers in sync. I haven't heard anyone complain about the !ve plugin (besides for an empty server connect bug), but lowering the percent required should fix most issues.
2. Fusionning Tempus and Resurfed into one same community
Tempus timer uses SourcePython as a base, while this one uses SourceMod. This would also require a rebranding which would probably hurt the servers more than help imo. This is more Tordana / Rob123 related though.
4. Update the Australian servers to the timer of the other servers
Pretty sure aus servers are up to date.
5. Put a Z velocity limit at Start zones with speed limitations
I tried this before and it didn't work out very well. I can mess with it again and see if I can get it so it doesn't trigger nearly every jump.
6. Fix the maps which used to have the cvar sv_maxvelocity set to higher values than 3500 u/s
No idea why that randomly broke. Can't imagine it would be too hard to fix.
7. Put info_teleport_destination of the Resurfed Timer at least one unit above the ground
Thats a lot of rezoning. Progress is being made on that though.
8. Create a !show_trigger to show color coded vertices of the triggers
Not completely possible. A lot of maps have baked triggers, which are impossible to get the coordinates for.
9. Allow the player to create his own checkpoints in the map (requires 8. to be implemented)
That would be incredibly unintuitive to add with how the timers designed. Something similar might be possible though.
10. Add to the the server a more advanced checkpoint system like the speedrunners use on twitch.tv
10a. Wouldn't that just cause the wr run to have every cp record.
10b. Don't we have that?
10c. Thats something I could possibly add in the future.
10d. If its supposed to work the same way stages do, The time spent between zone start and zone end would make this inaccurate.
10e. ^

Something I am adding to cps though with the new timer update is it'll record all your stage times for a run. When you get a run on a map, you'll be able to see the rank/time compared to recorded stage times. Similar to !ccp on ksf.
11. Make crouchboosting a separated category in the timer
imo it would just be smarter to work on removing crouchboosts. Why waste db space on cheated times.
12. Make surfing categories: normal, HSW, WS, W-Only, BW, Conga and cboost
For angles, I decided against adding something like that because of how easily cheatable that mode is. 95% of HSW times on KSF use a config. Don't think it would be worth the effort, especially since the effort required is a ton.
13. Implementing a race/duel feature to our timer !race
This is something I really want to add. It won't be too obnoxious to add either once I finish the rewrite.
14. Include more crateria in the current tiering system
More advanced map difficulty rating is a pretty good idea. I'm not sure its worth the effort required to implement something like that though. Obviously surf maps require a variety skills, and not every player is as skilled in some areas as others. The issue is that it takes only 5-10 minutes of playing a map to figure out exactly how hard it is for you. It is possible that the tier system will change in the future though.
15. Allow the community to vote and update the map tiers (require 1. to be implemented)
Tiers aren't very difficult to change. Just do a forum post if you disagree and it'll be looked at.

16. Life_Of_duck wasn't removed, it just wasn't added. Kitsune damages the integrity of surf.

17. christmas crashes the server. Telstar has a lot of shortcuts / needs a crazy complex config. I'll get to it, but that map is a project.

19. Configs can achieve the same thing. I agree that removing stuff makes a map better for speedrunning, but its also unappealing to newer surfers. Not really my decision though.

20. Agreed.

22. Those numbers after the thousandth place are wildly inaccurate. From tests I've done, its not much better than rng. However, the rewrite will give you the option to see a third digit.

24. I'll consider it. If its really only surf_torrent with that issue, it probably will be easier to just fix that map though than add a timer feature.

27. Good idea.

28. I think switching hop plugins might work better.

31. thats fixed.

32. I think tempus does something similar. Not a bad idea.


I'll read the rest later, that took longer than I expected.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 pm

Thank you for your input malt.

Also please make sure to take your time to read carefully everything I mentioned, as I saw that you jumped some ideas and near the end didn't take the time to read the text below (for example, the first sentence of 32 says "On Tempus, when you stay afk for 5 minutes, the server flags you as « Idle »." and then you said that you think tempus does that too).

Really don't take what I say personally, I am fully aware that the content I typed is very dense and hard to extract.

For the suggestion 24. about sided teleport, I find that there are more than one maps which could use this feature. The examples I have on the top of my head are stages on omnific and b3, surf_industries, surf_quartus, surf_airflow bonus, surf_flatliners, surf_congo_black_njv, surf_diamond_beta s2, surf_desolate, surf_quatum, etc. Thats what I has in mind when making that suggestion.

Also, as I explained earlier, cboosting isn't cheating, it just relies on a trick that inpact significatly the times obtained by either doing it or not. In most of games, when there is a major trick or shortcut that cuts in half the game because its so strong, they make categories to distinguish times done with the trick and times done without. This is exactly the case here in tf2 with cboost, since it can be used in order to go faster. All my suggestion asks to do is to put anti-cboost triggers everywhere and to make them toggle when a command is used.

Feel free to ask if you need more explanations on things.

Edit 11/07/2015: I read both your post and my post, and thought that I did not respond to everything. I think I need to clarify a bit more what I meant with my ideas so we are sure to talk about the same thing. This reply is only about what malt said in the message above this one on this topic to detail to him my vision of my ideas, even know at that time he did not yet take enough time to calmly assimilate everything I typed, which is okay considering the size of the post..

1. I am not saying with my suggestion that you are not telling people when you do a modification. Saying what you do is the least you can do and I am glad that this is getting done. Now what I am suggesting a is a bit more subtitle. I am talking about a way to get the players involved into the decision taking this server has by telling them in the game chat and on the forum what is planned to be done and allowing them to say on the forum what they think about it. For example, if you did ask us about the ve plugin, most people would have voted for the new features, but not for the current way it is set up. To avoid situations like that in the future and to allow everyone to decide what this server should become through discussion, I think that more communication should be here by setting announcement in the chat to tell people about news, putting votes and discussions on the forums. Also, keep telling people about what you do of course. Just allow the community to give you his opinion if you care about it (and you should since the servers are for the community).

2. When I said that the timers were the same, I was maybe a bit too excessive. They do look very similar and the exterior looking makes them do they don't seem too far away from each other. All this talks about is about the clan though, not about the timer. The timer can stay as it it on the tempus servers, and as it is on the Resurfed servers, even though there are good ideas on each servers that should be ported to the other one in my opinion, which makes em think we should collaborate together in order to rebuild the unified clan we used to be.

4. You are right! This suggestion is one of my oldest on my list and at the time of putting it in the !sl commands on aus were like the old ones we used to have I did not check ever since and I should have checked before posting this post though. I edited the suggestion 4 and now I ask about updating the announcements and maybe the ranks in order to make them look like the other servers or at least make them compatible with what the timer really does at the moment.

5. Hmm yeah, I don't know how you can code that in the timer either. If you can check the Z speed only and not have to work with the (x, y, z) speed, how about just blocking a Z velocity that is too high in the positive? (if positive velocity means that the player goes up) That way, you can allow a player to jump, but not to launch. And also allow him to jump from as high as he want without getting stopped (which can be handy in some weird start configuration in some maps).

6. Great!

7. What can of progress? Can you write a script which does elevate every teleport destinations by 4 units and after fix the ones people complain about or something like this to make the work easier?

8. So you mean that you can only show the triggers that are done within the timer plugin and not the ones set up in hammer? Ah too bad then, but that is better than nothing at least. Please try to search more if you are unsure there is absolutely no way to make triggers visible. Also in my suggestion, I assumed that you can make a trigger draw for someone, but not for the other people, which is maybe something abusive on my side since its not done with magic. I hope I wasn't all wrong by thinking that too. The goal of all my ideas isn't always to make it doable right now, but to make you discover concepts and realize that if they could be done, it would be fantastic (maybe).

9. I hope you understand that I don't mean the checkpoints added by a player as a replacement, but as one more way for him to check how he is doing in his run by having one more feedback on his performance. All my suggestion is about is allowing the player to fly with timer off across the map (or in spectator), and allowing him to create squares with an assigned name, a Pr-run slot and a comparison to the time he has when entering the trigger again. That is it. There does not need to have any checking condition within it except for maybe a trigger limit per player per type of run and a position limit inside the Hammer grid boundaries. You don't care in which order or when the triggers are touched since its all up to the player to see and understand the tool he has developed by himself. That is the spirit behind the suggestion I did.

10.
10.a. No, a World record run does not necessarily not have all the best checkpoint transitions in the same run. If I take an example of myself on surf_utopia_njv, I lost time compared to the best potential I can do on Start to Checkpoint 1, on Checkpoint 1 to Checkpoint 2 and on Checkpoint 3 to the end. only my Checkpoint 2 to Checkpoint 3 what amazing, and having them record on the server would allow me to see for example how close to "perfect" this section of my PR run was.

10.b. Yes, this time already displays in red if you do not improve and in green when you do, but I want to be more precise than that. Assuming you did set the recording checkpoint feature to the server, there are now 4 parameters in every types of maps appearing when crossing a checkpoint: The difference between your current time and the world record time for this checkpoint, the difference between your time and your personal record for this checkpoint, the difference between your current time and the world record time for the map and the difference between your current time and your current personal record for this map. What I was meaning with the gold color feature is that if you beat your current personal transition between two checkpoint, then display the checkpoint comparison in gold because its the best potential transition the player has ever done compaire to all the runs he has made. Then if the player is ahead of his pr run for the map AND has a gold checkpoint, then show the map run to current time comparision in gold too to notify the player that he is doing amazing. Here is a visual example so you can see better what I mean:

Run without a gold transition and being ahead of his map run PR:
Entered Checkpoint 4 WRCP+00:02.00 PRCP +00:01.00
Current time: 01:30.00 +00:10.00 PR -00:05.00


Run with a gold transition, but being still behind his map run PR:
Entered Checkpoint 4 WRCP+00:02.00 PRCP -00:01.00
Current time: 01:30.00 +00:10.00 PR +00:05.00

Run with a gold transition and being ahead of his map run PR:
Entered Checkpoint 4 WRCP+00:02.00 PRCP -00:01.00
Current time: 01:30.00 +00:10.00 PR -00:05.00


Same thing with world record: show in gold if you beat the WRCP and in gold too the number after "Current time" if ahead of the world record run for the map. Reminder: the checkpoint time does only get recorded on a successful map run. So if you did very bad the first time and keep failing good runs, you may see a lot of gold without improving your checkpoint personal records. These checkpoints are only supposed to show you how good you can be at a checkpoint when doing a run and nothing else.

11. In case I wasn't clear enough the two previous times: crouch-boosting cannot be stated as a cheat as long as it is allowed by the rules. So what we basically have on the server right now is a crouch-boosted database. What we need to do is to make a separate crouch-boost proof database where people cannot crouch boost to not bypass the rules of that category. Unless you prefer to deny this discipline, spent hours making maps crouch-boost proof and spend countless days in the database trying to figure out which times are cheated or not in order to remove them all to finally make the game fair. But my opinion on that is that both should be allowed as both can be a lost of fun and challenge to do, because you can mae the crouch-boost and not crouch-boost category extend to some maps to implement telehopped and not telehopped categories on maps like surf_utopia_njv.

12. If you think that making a reliable and not cheatable way to make angled surfs categories isn't really doable and would not bring that much to the gameplay either, then I have nothing to say about it since I think it would be fine.

13. this is a great news! Also please check out the idea of bearz above about making on player's profile a badge showing how many winning, defeat and race played they have done. Maybe that would be interesting to add too.

14. Yes it takes 5-10 minutes to play the map and figure out. But it also takes 5-10 minutes to doawnload the map and even more to make it voted. What I am talking about are people who do not want to hear about a map because it has a certain tier on it, even know they have no clue what the map is like. I want people to be able to say "Yes, this map is tier 5. (which is scary at first). But since I am good at keeping speed and have good reflexes in general, I think I can have fun on this map and maybe be able to complete it even know it is not meant for people with my rank." because they saw a detailed list of the stats of what made the map hard. Maybe the mi can count the average number of ramps the player needs to take in order to complete the map/stages/bonus, the order of idea of the speed through the map, the brightness or the time it takes to complete it on a casual run for example. Something which along with the number of people who completed the map, can help a player to pick the maps he knows he can play without being scared by the tiering of it.

15. If a forum post is all it takes to report to the admins a bad tier, then it should be said somehow on the server that this can be done. What I had as an idea was that if an admin sees someone who has submitted a report for a map tier, maybe he could set a vote for a week on all of the servers to gather the opinion of all the players. So when the players joins, a vote appears "Should surf_sandman be moved from tier 5 to tier 4?; 1 No ; 2 Yes". Maybe only make this vote appear to people who only have a certain rank of people who completed this map only to restrict the public and be more sure about the accuracy of the feedback. Then after the vote period is finished, the decision is taken and admins change the tier if needed. Just something to let everyone know about it. You can instead of making the vote on the server put the vote on the forum, but make an announcement on the server about it too.

16. surf_life_of_duck is on the Australian server and is completable. It is added in the database, but not playable on the other easy servers for some reason. Therefore, this map should be either entirely removed or entirely added, but should not stay as its current state of only being playable on one of the three servers supposed to host this map.

In what way does surf_kitsune damage the integrity of surfing?

17. Yes, surf_christmas crashes the server. But Can you remove stages so we can play with the last working bit of it meanwhile you try fixing what doesn't work? If surf_telstar is in progress, that is a good thing. Thank you for taking care of it.

19. Its up to you. I personally think unfair that some people can have the chance to have someone nice to hold the doors open when they will pass and some other not, and that moving objects can ruin your runs 4 times out of 5.

20. Yes, but will tordana do anything about it?

22. It does not matter if the numbers mean anything, all the command will do is displaying all the digits of one time. I don't ask you to replace the way all the times are displayed throughout all the server. 2 digit in general is perfect by the way and i don't think that adding a third one everywhere would help anybody, unless extreme cases where you tie the wr with +00:00.00 and get 1st or where you beat the wr by 00:00.00 and still be 2nd. In these precise cases, all the digits you can find are appreciated. Even if there will be cases where 3 will be enough to see a difference, there is nothing wrong in showing that all the digits are the same, but one is first and the other one is second, since its not a timer flaw anyway. Do you understand what my opinion is about this?

24. I think the response i gave in this original post is clear enough.

27. Thank you!

28. If you think its an easier task, then do it.

31. I wasn't sure, but thats perfect!

32. Its okay, it took myself 3 hours of reading to see if i did not make any spelling mistakes even though it should take me less time to read if I typed it myself. So really again take your time to read everything, even if that takes you all the months to clearly understand all the parts of it.
Last edited by Shadow Sheep on Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Insomnia » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:43 pm

I can't stress how annoying the new vote extend plugin is...there's been so many times where some insentient being has joined the server, gone afk, and left me with no extend votes left on a map that I've been grinding for a few hours. And not just me, a lot of us have experienced this issue and it needs some fixing.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by not_a_zombie » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:27 pm

I figured I should give my opinions on these. I did have a more in depth post but then it got lost, so whatever. If I don't bring up something that means I don't have an opinion on it or it's already been addressed.


6. Fix max velocity

This is important. Some of the maps are broken because of this.

8. Show some triggers

Malt said this is impossible to do generally, but it's somewhat necessary when going for shortcuts such as surf_cyanide stage 2.

9. Allow custom checkpoints

Malt said this would be unintuitive, but a simpler design of "make a plane normal to the player's velocity" should work fine if you tell the player to only make checkpoints on ramps.

10. More advanced checkpoints

Just keep in mind some maps have somewhat iffy triggers, such as surf_faint, and the resulting "best" times may not be accurate as a result.

11/12. Cboosting and separate categories

I don't see the problem with this, although I do agree with malt that if we can detect cboosting, it'd be better off to disallow it than to make it a separate category.

14. Create subcategories for tiers

I'm not seeing the personal need for this, because as malt said, you can often get a feel for this as you play the map. On the other hand, you can say the same about the tier system as a whole. I can see this being useful to people who don't know the maps very well and want to focus on a certain thing.

15. Allow community to change map tiers

Good suggestion, but as malt pointed out, this is better suited to discussion than an automated system.

16. Synchronize the database with maps that don't exist everywhere (kitsune, life of duck)

This should be fixed. If kitsune isn't coming back, it should be out of the database. Life of duck shouldn't be exclusive to the australia server - it should either not exist or exist on all the easy servers.

19. Remove moving parts

This is very important for a timed skillsurf server. I don't see how this makes the maps less appealing for new players as malt says, but even if it does, the moving parts should at least be removed from the advanced server.

20/21/28 - chat announcements and commands

Yes

23/24/25/26 - new commands

These seem pretty useful as a quality of life thing

27 -a votenextmap command

I think this is very important for diplomatically figuring out what map should be played next. Most of the time on the advanced server people want to keep playing the map when the vote menu stops allowing simple extends, so nextmap gets set to something random or something that only one or two people want to play. Later, when people are getting tired of the current map, they have two options - extend, or play whatever map was arbitrarily chosen. This needs to be fixed.

29 - make !resume persist over map changes

Sounds useful in case somebody rtvs a map you're working on, but should be accompanied by an absolute time limit so people don't go around making 10 hour runs.

30 -!thirdperson

The only problem I see with this is that third person is pretty detrimental to your play - it may discourage new people as they find it hard to see exactly how they landed on a ramp poorly. On the other hand, not having it may discourage people from playing as well. Who knows.

31 - !ve isn't working properly if you've already ve'd

Last time I checked, this wasn't fixed.

32 - make idle people not count in votes

This is pretty important to go along with 31. I'd also support not letting [new] vote or rtv on the advanced server to encourage new people to play on the easy server and to stop people from coming in and being annoying.

33 - make a confirmation vote when ve or rtv passes

I'd support an !unrtv and !unve command instead. I don't see the need to vote twice.

34 - remove nomination cooldown after a map is played

Maybe on the advanced server,but the easy server probably needs this. If it doesn't work out on the advanced server it can always be reverted, so why not implement it?

35/36 -remove ve limitation and rework how many votes are required

Yes. Ve and Rtv should require the same amount of votes, not ve requiring 2 of 2 but rtv passing with 1 of 3.

37/47 Make the timer keep track of who did what save, so you can navigate forward/backward through them

This one is pretty important to me. Sometime I'll practice a certain saveloc for a while before reverting to a previous one, but if the server's active it can be hard to find which was my last save. Making a !prevsave and !nextsave which sets me to my previous/next made saves would be very helpful, as well as just letting me browse through the saves manually.

38 - allow naming of saves

This sounds useful.

39 - having a hard limit of 256 saves should not be a thing

I support the first and easiest idea, which is just increase the amount of saves allowed. Running out rarely happens as it is, there's no need to spend a lot of time on something that will rarely be used. I support rate limitation just as a way to prevent griefing.

41 - more surfbot demos

This is something that has been missing from the surfbot, and I feel it's important to have both fast and easy as ways to see the map done, as well as alternate routes such as surf_exocube stage 2 and surf_flatliners.

43 - make spectating allow you to use your fov instead of the target's fov

This would be useful if you want to spec people who have 75 fov.

45 - Allow slower classes to be played

This should be accompanied by a warning so new players don't accidentally gimp themselves.

48 - keep track of map frequency

I would like to see this as well.
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