Suggestions...or something I guess

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Shadow Sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Thank you for your point of view not_a_zombie. I just want to couple things about what you said because to me it shows that I maybe wasn't clear enough in my first post.

10. The checkpoints system I am talking about may indeed not always be accurate, especially on some linear maps. But keep in mind that they will behave like stages in staged me for a linear map. And Stages wr are certainly not accurate to define what is the best map run possible. This is the reason I think that only recording the checkpoints time once a full run is completed can limit this downside, and if some maps really are not representative, people will be smart enough to notice it anyway. Also, this value just exists to tell you how good you are doing on your run, nothing else. There won't be any reward to have the fastest checkpoint or anything. Just more information available to the player.

14. The current tier system basically just tells the player "hard/not hard". What I also want these categories to show is the surfing style of the map and help the player to see if it suits to his own surf style or not. But malt and you are both right: if they want to figure the style of 30 maps, they can just go ahead and nominate + rtv to play them all in a row for 2 hours (assuming all the players on the servers really want to help him). Or they can just check a list for 2 minutes.

29. I am not saying that to only you not_a_zombie, but I really think that you should only put limits on things where otherwise it would actually cause a problem. I know that most people would think that a 10 hours limit would be way enough to complete a map (of course, because you all know how to surf good). Someone who casually plays 2 hours a week and end up after 6 months with a 50 hours run is something fine to me, because its like casually playing a video game on console or on a computer. Even if it takes me 25 hours to complete Portal 2, my progress was saved and I was happy about my gaming experience in general. I think this should be the same for our server (even though maps should take less time to complete than a video game).

Other than that, I really appreciate your feedback on my list because it shows that the community needs it and not just me. I also cannot wait for tordana to give me his answer (maybe he just forgot :cry: ).

Edit 15/07/2015:

33. A !unrtv and !unve would be neat. Changed suggestion 33. to 36. and made it so only one ve/rtv is needed to trigger the vote.
Last edited by Shadow Sheep on Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by mr.gmmbearz » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:44 am

i agree with sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Nastybutler » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:03 am

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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Nastybutler » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:03 am

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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Nastybutler » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:04 am

All three of these posts reserved for when I get time to write my explanations on Friday.

I do have a 60+ hour work week this week, so please be patient.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by _one » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:50 pm

Now i know this isnt really THAT important, but...
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by tordana » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:58 pm

Full responses

Oh boy, here we go. Note that I'm far too lazy to copy and paste in quotes from the original message, so I'll just be referring to everything by number.

I'll be using this post as a sort of to-do list and editing things as they get done. Nothing has been done yet, but this first version is to let you know what I'm planning on.

1. I agree more dialog is good. Part of the issue here is that I (and most of the other admins with a few exceptions) don't surf anywhere near as much as some of the active players. We cover most of the time between the admin staff, but nobody is really nolifing it at this point. Thus: forums are the best way to get ideas out there. I use them and the steam group for announcements as well. I know that I'm notoriously bad about accidentally closing steam messages and then forgetting what I was told in them, so forums are a bit more permanent. :D

2. Not going to happen. ReSurfed is allied with ECJump community (hence why !hop works between those two networks). I'd be fine with a similar partnership with Rob's Tempus servers but rebranding either would be a big undertaking that I don't think is worth it.

3. My understanding of the server technology of Source leads me to assume that this is impossible for multiplayer servers. I believe something like this exists for TF2 already as a local listen server plugin though - it's been used in jump speedruns.

4. Rob123 has full control of the Aussie servers. They aren't ReSurfed, they just use the same timer. I'm not even admin on them. Therefore this and any other suggestion about Aussie isn't really applicable at the moment. There's a definite pipeline issue here though that needs to get resolved - I'll talk to Rob and see what we can do.

5. I'd like to see this added and implemented for new maps. Putting it in for older maps would require either wiping the map or having unbeatable wr, two things I don't like doing.

6. Top priority. Working on it.

7. Yep. The teleports are all set by admins (usually me) in-game by typing in a console command while standing at the location. For some recent maps I've started instead binding a command for each stage to a key, then JUMPING at the location and hitting the bind to fix this. It's a lot of time to fix all of them, but I can fix the more egregious ones if I know where they are. Forum thread incoming soon for this

8. This somewhat exists now as a buggy, admin-only command that affects the entire server (and as malt mentioned doesn't work for baked triggers). It's my understanding that it's impossible to do on a per-user basis.

9. See above. Probably not possible without drastic timer rewrite.

10. a. I get what you're talking about, would be interesting to have. Leaving this up to malt if he wants to put the time into doing it.
b. I agree, should be added if (a) is.
c. Useful functionality, another one for malt.
d. If (a) exists this should be easy to stick in the same hud panel where it shows you your best checkpoints.
e. Same as (d)

11. It's not going to be a different category. My current policy on crouchboosting: If it's possible it's allowed. With that said, Every new map that is getting added we are making it impossible. I realize that's a difference between new/old maps but it's the best solution I can come up with that doesn't involve wiping a bunch of old times.

12. Takes EXTREMELY high amounts of time for minimal use. Not going to happen for now, malt has enough to deal with.

13. Hell yes. Lots of coding though, another for malt.

14. I don't think this is a good idea. The current tiers are already completely subjective, adding more layers of subjectivity in doesn't seem like a good way to make them more accurate.

15. Worthy of a forum section to discuss changes. Most tiers are either guessed by me after playing the map for a while, or copied from KSF. Either way can lead to errors. However, I STRONGLY disagree in re-tiering maps as the community on average gets better. That deletes any sense of progression people get. ("Yay I beat a T5 for the first time! Oh shit it used to be T5 but now it's T3, I still fucking suck") If we need harder tiers there's no reason why we can't add 7 and 8. But I don't think it's needed right now.

16. Kitsune on the list. Duck not the list, because fuck that map. It's on aussie if you want to play it. I never wanted it on the timer in the first place, rob just added it lol

17. This is for a mapper, I have no knowledge of how to fix this shit. I'd like to see it happen though.

18. I think that's probably the best solution. We unfortunately can't checkpoint them either, so would have to be linear with 0 checkpoints. But would be playable. I'll consider it. Lodypreview is barely a surf map, it's more kz than surf which is why I didn't add originally. Also because I enjoyed trolling the person that wanted it. But it should probably get added.

19. This can be done in stripper without making people re-download the map, which is a much cleaner way of doing it. I'm definitely in favor of strippering doors to stay permanently open - not so much on removing spinny things. I like them. But I'm a scrub.

20. Good ideas. The trade message that you hate so much is copied verbatim from the message iT had on all their servers and is there in homage to them and Klanana. Plus I like trolling you with it. But I agree it's not as clear as it should be. I also like other ideas you had. Working on these

21. I'll make that change. Not possible to have it show on only staged, unfortunately.

22. Incredibly pointless unfortunately. Times are only accurate to the server tick rate, which is .01515 seconds (66 tick). Anything lower than that is completely random based on a mess of factors including your ping and the float representation of the current server time.

23. I like this for sure. Malt?

24. Another one for malt. On maps that spawn you at either side I often have the teleport drop you in to a fail zone as a workaround for this.

25. Seems reasonable. Again, for malt.

26. You can already mute people's text chat in TF2 by hitting escape, clicking on "mute player" and picking them. This mutes both text and voice. It doesn't stop you from seeing them via IRC link unfortunately which is something I can work on.

27. I like this. Should be triggered by a vote, and only possible to do if the map has been !ve after the map was selected. Probably another for malt since it would be tied into !ve plugin.

28. You have no idea how much it bothers me that this doesn't work. I've tried to fix it in the past. Will try again though annoying as shit bug

29. This would be cool but would require massive rewrite of !resume. Right now it just saves things to RAM, this proposed idea would necessitate adding new tables into the SQL database to save them. I like the idea, lots of work to implement.

30. Nope. This actually makes a lot of things significantly easier, which makes it not just "for fun" but required if it's enabled. Not going to happen.

31. :)

32. Yea I like this. Note that the servers DO have AFK kick functionality, but it only turns on when they are getting near full. I generally don't mind people idling AFK - but it becomes an issue if it breaks voting.

33. I'll change this, at least dropping it from 5 to a lower number. Maybe not 0 but we'll see.

34. Yea I agree it should be possible to infinite ve but only with 100% of the vote.

35. I think this might have gotten changed again? Don't actually know. The recent ve update was all done by malt without running it past me so I don't really know the current situation. Ideally I think ve should be 50% required scaling to 100% over, say, 8 ve extensions.

36. It's a weird quirk of voting in games like this that if you pop up a vote, a good half the server will vote 1 without reading it. That's why voting 1 on the map vote doesn't actually do anything. I also don't like spamming too many votes on the screen. It's something to consider, but percentages would certainly have to be adjusted.

37. Yes. Maaaalt.

38. Also seems useful but lower priority as just a quality of life fix.

39. I didn't even know this was the case. I think (c) is the most elegant solution here and I'd like to see it.

40. As your edit mentioned -- currently impossible with how the bot is written.

41. Let me combine my answer to all of these about the bot with a statement: I'm fully aware that the bot is lacking in a lot of functionality. The fact is the bot is the most complicated plugin on the server (it's more code than the timer!) and it's a frickin' miracle that AI (the plugin developer) has managed to get the basics of it working. I'm staying in touch with AI for updates and I know he is working on some of this already.

42. I'll check the configs and set back to default

43. Limitation of TF2. Unfixable :(

44. Ubi is making a plugin for this

45. I can consider adding them for advanced servers. They are not going to be added to beginner servers, because newbies are stupid and will try to surf as heavy and then wonder why they can't beat the map.

46. Yep I like this! Another for the list for malt though.

47. This is tied in with #37 and should be implemented at the same time.

48. This should be possible as a web-based thing because all that data is in the server logs already. I'll do some hacking and see how difficult it is.

There you go! As I mentioned, I'll update as things get done. Thanks again for the huge list Sheep.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by TeMP » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:52 pm

"34. Remove the !ve limitation and put it as infinite as before"

I think you should be able to extend as long as you want, but the more and more the map gets extended, the % of yes's needed is increased, eventually up to 100%
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:36 pm

Hey! Tordana answered! Amazing! I almost lost hope to be honest! :D

I am joking, I am not happy at all because of what you said about these suggestions:

2. You don't have to rebrand anyone though. If both of the people of our two community are willing to collaborate (haven't seen anyone against so far), then I don't see why it would be a bad thing to become one same and bigger community. Two jumping community don't have to be rivals.

4. Then please tell him you new plan for the resurfed servers so he can adapt to it.

7. Maybe you did not see it because it was a reply to malt. But I was asking if you couldn't just go in the database, take all the destinations entities and increase their Z coordinates by 4 units to fix all the problems? That should fix it once for all.

8-9. Keep these features in mind if you plan to make the timer plugin evolve in the future so it can become compatible.

11. If you think about it tordana, what we currently have is a crouchbosted timer category since the beginning. In order to make it fair for everyone, we would have to create a completly unrelated surfing category reserved for not crouchboosted and not telehopped times. That way, people surfing not crouchboosted and not telehopped can focus on surfing like they used to, while people who want to crouchboost can exploit triggers as much as they want without feeling bad about it because its perfectly fair since its the same category they are competing in.
In speedrunning in general, when there is a major trick which makes a very noticeable difference in the way the game gets completed, speedrunners create 2 categories: one including the new trick and an other old-school playing the game as before. Each category has his own rules and there is no confusion between which is faster than the other. For example, if you come back to the first page of this topic and see the TAS of super mario 64, a major trick used is a Backward Longjump Trick using the fact that mario's can gain speed by jumping backward on slopes and that mario's backward speed isn't limited. There is a category with, and a category without, which is the 70 stars TAS run of the game.
This distinction allows players to focus on different aspect on speedrunning the game, and the exact reason you are not allowing it is because they are in the same category.
So unless you have something personal in particular (which in no way must influence your admin behavior) against cboosting, you should now at least understand that spliting in 2 categories solves the problem and that the database for registered times does not take that much space anyway (less than 50 MB according to Gc).

12. We have spoken about that already with malt and I personnaly think that only Normal, Crouch-boosted categories are necessary.

13. I highly recommend to get this feature ready before tip of the hat 2015.

14. The more subjective term you use to describe something, the more precise anyone can see it. I really think these parameter will allow any player to know if a map is hard and why. Or you can just assume that tiers are subjective and remove them as well.

16. "Duck not the list, because fuck that map." This is not a valid argument. You have to consider that you are the admin of a community of soon 30 000 players, and that its because you personally think that a map is bad that no one wants to play it. And as far as I am noticing, you are not a regular player anymore, meaning that if this map only annoys you, you have no reason to add it since you never play on this server. By the time I am speaking, this map currently counts in the completion rate of this server, which means its official in the timer. So the solution is to add this map to both easy servers. What allows you to say that this artistic map creation is bad? Isn't that subjective too? Why allowing surf_hurrr then? Why allowing surf_froots? Can you realize how absurd the decisions you are taking appear to this whole community?

17. Today, I wanted to see what was wrong with surf_christmas. I downloaded it and it crashes my game. Which means that this is not the timer's fault if it crashes it. I decompiled the map to see what was wrong, then compiled it again because I had nothing interesting to do, and it was working fine. So I guess this map could be on the server without too much work to do on it. Kelao has a more advanced version than the one hosted here, so I think I will leave him the responsibility to fix the port.

20. Okay, lets do some hypnosis to enlarge your tunnel vision tordana. Ready?

you troll troll troll me......the message is obsolete...the message is obsolete.......YOU ARE LYING TO 30 000 PLAYERS TORDANA

Do you even realize what is happening since 2 years? All these people, who think that trading is a bannable offense... How can you even feel comfortable doing that every 5 minutes to everyone? There is nowhere where you can exactly see what is a bannable offense and what is not, so why this? You said "working on these", but do you even plan to change it? A joke is fun 10 minutes at most, you can't be that negligent to leave this message for one and half year just as a joke, there is no way on earth you could do that. So why? You are reading this through my account, but I am speaking for all the players right now: Why would you lie to them? Can't you even put a bind saying that crafting items is a bannable offense while we are at it?

I really hope you will change it.

22. incredibly useful unfortunately. Look:

Timer | Map Record by Shadow Sheep 00:30.98 -00:00.00 PR -00:00.01 Timer | Ranked 2/999 for The Map

Who won? Who lost? Wouldn't these last digits be handy in this case to see what happened? All I am asking for is a command to see what all the digit are for one requested time. Its not a matter of if the last digits mean anything. Is the timer even 0.1 second accurate? You never know. No one would be forced to use that feature either. No one will complain. What would be wrong with adding it? If we later have a TAS plugin, maybe it would be useful to see these numbers for some comparison, even though these numbers are random. They exist, and there are situations where you need to see them.

26. If you can just mute everyone through the menu, then why did you add this feature to the server? its not even hard to make since many other server have plugins like this to mute someone in particular.

And if even you don't find it useful to push it further inside the server, then please focus on the irc side. There are many times when you just want to mute somebody in particular through IRC, but you can without turning off the chat entirely, just because of one guy. So please make for the player a thing which allows only some people to pass through irc and not some other with a command.

30. "This actually makes a lot of things significantly easier". You keep saying this without any example. I have completed 99.90% of the maps, and there is no map or stage where thirdperson would have helped me to surf better. The only thing where I see third person helping is when you want to kill people coming around a corner without peeking out. So please give me examples where third person unbalances surfing so i can understand your point of view.

33. "Maybe not 0 but we'll see." I insist on dropping the nomination cooldown to 0. If people want to change for a map, then regret, there is no reason for them to have to rock the vote 3 maps in a row in order to play the map they were on again. If a map gets played, its 100% the players fault. So please remove this "security" to allow players full control on what map is on the server.

34. If you ever consider re-installing team fortress 2 one day, come to a server, say you are the Admin, then ask everyone on the server to type in the chat precisely "I am a big champion". You will soon realize that you cannot technically have 24 players paying attention to what is happening in the chat and that 100% is not possible unless you are less than 5 on the server and connected less than 5 minutes ago.

So now, second question I want to ask you again because you never answered me: Why do you think that preventing people from playing a map longer is a good idea? The only people on earth which should be telling you to stop playing are your parents because its 1 am. Not the server. So please give me arguments because no one wants that (except TeMP who came out of nowhere to reply on this post even though he is fully moved to ksf, so not playing here and not concerned).

36. This is the exact reason why I did put the No option on 1 so its not cheated easily. You are here assuming that this community is stupid and cannot read what is written in the vote and in the chat. People will spam if the vote comes in a scheduled moment, but not if it comes by surprise to the player.

This is also the solution to all our trouble with knowing who wants to extend and who wants to not. After a vote like this, you instantly know who does not want to extend and who does not want to keep playing the map. So what you should do it adding this, and see if people complain. If they do because its too effective and that its should be as obscure as before with no announcement saying in the chat to newer people that rtv and !ve are a thing, then fine put it back as before. But at least give it a try. No one is against this if its not you.

39. But why not using a, b, c, d and e all at once? Do you really want to allow people to spam the sm_sl bind to delete all the current saves on the server by removing them as they are older? Do you also really want to not allow people to regret the saves they have done? Do you really want to not increase the number of saves available for 32 players? Its your responsibility to do what is the best for the community.

41. But do you let him work alone with his plugin? Will he ever hear about the suggestions I have for him? How can we contact him?

43. I just wanted to be sure. Too bad though.

I am joking tordana, I am not angry! :D All the points I did not talk about were points I do agree with you and am happy that you take care of them.

I am just so revolted that so many people want something that could be provided with some effort, and you are just not giving them. You are are taking some decisions without giving understandable reasoning behind them (like third person, surf_life_of_duck, map extension and voting) and you don't give the community that plays the opportunity to collaborate with you in order to take together the best resolutions. So let this thread change this!

I am expecting you tordana to answer in a reasonable delay since this message is directly addressed to you.
Last edited by Shadow Sheep on Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Epi » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:39 pm

I'm working on some of these and slowly adding them to the EU servers for public testing.

20. Just added a bunch of announcements.
42. Reduced it to 3 seconds.
43. is indeed unfixable, tried it with fov changers etc.
45. Didn't succeed in blocking the base jumper with any plugin, will try again later.
xx. Tried a few chat filter plugins to remove the !restart spam. Didn't work. Might try again if people are really annoyed by it.
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