Suggestions...or something I guess

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tordana
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by tordana » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:00 am

Shadow Sheep wrote:Hey! Tordana answered! Amazing! I almost lost hope to be honest! :D

I am joking, I am not happy at all because of what you said about these suggestions:

2. You don't have to rebrand anyone though. If both of the people of our two community are willing to collaborate (haven't seen anyone against so far), then I don't see why it would be a bad thing to become one same and bigger community. Two jumping community don't have to be rivals.
True, and then I guess I misunderstood your point. Adding them to !hop makes sense especially on the aussie surf servers. I just didn't want to bring all the servers under one name (which wouldn't even make sense because iT was owned all by one person, and these aren't.

4. Then please tell him you new plan for the resurfed servers so he can adapt to it.
Will do.

7. Maybe you did not see it because it was a reply to malt. But I was asking if you couldn't just go in the database, take all the destinations entities and increase their Z coordinates by 4 units to fix all the problems? That should fix it once for all.
I did miss that. I actually can't see why it wouldn't work but I will check with malt because it's always scary to make sweeping changes to a database.

8-9. Keep these features in mind if you plan to make the timer plugin evolve in the future so it can become compatible.
Yep.

11. If you think about it tordana, what we currently have is a crouchbosted timer category since the beginning. In order to make it fair for everyone, we would have to create a completly unrelated surfing category reserved for not crouchboosted and not telehopped times. That way, people surfing not crouchboosted and not telehopped can focus on surfing like they used to, while people who want to crouchboost can exploit triggers as much as they want without feeling bad about it because its perfectly fair since its the same category they are competing in.
In speedrunning in general, when there is a major trick which makes a very noticeable difference in the way the game gets completed, speedrunners create 2 categories: one including the new trick and an other old-school playing the game as before. Each category has his own rules and there is no confusion between which is faster than the other. For example, if you come back to the first page of this topic and see the TAS of super mario 64, a major trick used is a Backward Longjump Trick using the fact that mario's can gain speed by jumping backward on slopes and that mario's backward speed isn't limited. There is a category with, and a category without, which is the 70 stars TAS run of the game.
This distinction allows players to focus on different aspect on speedrunning the game, and the exact reason you are not allowing it is because they are in the same category.
So unless you have something personal in particular (which in no way must influence your admin behavior) against cboosting, you should now at least understand that spliting in 2 categories solves the problem and that the database for registered times does not take that much space anyway (less than 50 MB according to Gc).
I thought it was general consensus of the community that cboosting was a bad thing? I'm not aware of anyone that actually wants cboosting everywhere. If that's true, why split the categories?

12. We have spoken about that already with malt and I personnaly think that only Normal, Crouch-boosted categories are necessary.
There are people that want HSW in particular, but they are a very small minority.

13. I highly recommend to get this feature ready before tip of the hat 2015.
That may not be useful, actually. I've spoken to Kurt a bit about ToTH surf and it's going to be a different format this year because they had feedback about it being too confusing for non-surfers to follow, so it's likely going to be one person at a time speedrunning maps. Possibly with various challenges (low FOV, other classes, etc. etc.). That's an entirely different topic of discussion though.

14. The more subjective term you use to describe something, the more precise anyone can see it. I really think these parameter will allow any player to know if a map is hard and why. Or you can just assume that tiers are subjective and remove them as well.
Don't get me wrong I like your idea. But if we can't agree on 1 tier value right now, the odds of people agreeing on 4 is pretty much zero. Plus - high levels of coding as well as manual work involved. Question though: if malt gets this added would you Sheep be willing to make the initial pass of adding the extra tier variables to each existing map?

16. "Duck not the list, because fuck that map." This is not a valid argument. You have to consider that you are the admin of a community of soon 30 000 players, and that its because you personally think that a map is bad that no one wants to play it. And as far as I am noticing, you are not a regular player anymore, meaning that if this map only annoys you, you have no reason to add it since you never play on this server. By the time I am speaking, this map currently counts in the completion rate of this server, which means its official in the timer. So the solution is to add this map to both easy servers. What allows you to say that this artistic map creation is bad? Isn't that subjective too? Why allowing surf_hurrr then? Why allowing surf_froots? Can you realize how absurd the decisions you are taking appear to this whole community?
Some amount of quality control is required. There is more than one map that I have rejected from the servers. People may not agree on my decisions but I think you can see we can't have just every single map named surf_anything if it's like one straight ramp for 5 minutes. life_of_duck doesn't meet my quality requirements. With that said, what's done is done and it's on the timer because of Rob adding it on Aus, so it probably should be put onto NA/EU too.

17. Today, I wanted to see what was wrong with surf_christmas. I downloaded it and it crashes my game. Which means that this is not the timer's fault if it crashes it. I decompiled the map to see what was wrong, then compiled it again because I had nothing interesting to do, and it was working fine. So I guess this map could be on the server without too much work to do on it. Kelao has a more advanced version than the one hosted here, so I think I will leave him the responsibility to fix the port.
The map is all sorts of weird. Christmas loaded perfectly fine for me on local server. It loaded on resurfed. I added timer triggers, reloaded the map, and it crashed. Deleted the triggers, reloaded the map, still crashed.

20. Okay, lets do some hypnosis to enlarge your tunnel vision tordana. Ready?

you troll me...you troll me...you troll me......the message is obsolete...the message is obsolete.......YOU ARE LYING TO 30 000 PLAYERS TORDANA


Do you even realize what is happening since 2 years? All these people, who think that trading is a bannable offense... How can you even feel comfortable doing that every 5 minutes to everyone? There is nowhere where you can exactly see what is a bannable offense and what is not, so why this? You said "working on these", but do you even plan to change it? A joke is fun 10 minutes at most, you can't be that negligent to leave this message for one and half year just as a joke, there is no way on earth you could do that. So why? You are reading this through my account, but I am speaking for all the players right now: Why would you lie to them? Can't you even put a bind saying that crafting items is a bannable offense while we are at it?

I really hope you will change it.
You're still the only person that's ever complained to me about it. But see Epi's post.

22. incredibly useful unfortunately. Look:

Timer | Map Record by Shadow Sheep 00:30.98 -00:00.00 PR -00:00.01 Timer | Ranked 2/999 for The Map

Who won? Who lost? Wouldn't these last digits be handy in this case to see what happened? All I am asking for is a command to see what all the digit are for one requested time. Its not a matter of if the last digits mean anything. Is the timer even 0.1 second accurate? You never know. No one would be forced to use that feature either. No one will complain. What would be wrong with adding it? If we later have a TAS plugin, maybe it would be useful to see these numbers for some comparison, even though these numbers are random. They exist, and there are situations where you need to see them.
OK you have a point there. However, my counterpoint would be that fixing the -0/+0 bug would be more relevant, so that if you can't see the extra digits at least it will show -00:00.00 if you beat WR and +00:00.00 if you didn't.

26. If you can just mute everyone through the menu, then why did you add this feature to the server? its not even hard to make since many other server have plugins like this to mute someone in particular.

And if even you don't find it useful to push it further inside the server, then please focus on the irc side. There are many times when you just want to mute somebody in particular through IRC, but you can without turning off the chat entirely, just because of one guy. So please make for the player a thing which allows only some people to pass through irc and not some other with a command.
I'm not sure what mute you are talking about. Is there a server command to mute individual players? Because I didn't add that, if it exists (I've never used it, nor looked for it) it's built into sourcemod. If you're talking about hiding all chat that's a completely different thing. And muting specific people through IRC is *possible* but note it has technical limitations - it cannot work off steamID but has to work off name. So if the person in the other server changes their name you will have to mute them again.

30. "This actually makes a lot of things significantly easier". You keep saying this without any example. I have completed 99.90% of the maps, and there is no map or stage where thirdperson would have helped me to surf better. The only thing where I see third person helping is when you want to kill people coming around a corner without peeking out. So please give me examples where third person unbalances surfing so i can understand your point of view.
The primary thing is letting you see exactly where your head and feet are. Obviously you get a feel for that just from playing the game, but for example the shortcut on s3(4? I forget) of surf_beginner gets easier with thirdperson. On another note, spins do weird things to thirdperson camera if I'm not mistaken. I'm fully aware both of these reasons are a bit weak, perhaps my best reason against it that I hadn't mentioned before is that any plugin allowing thirdperson requires sketchy sv_cheats-simulating stuff that always seems like a potential security hole to me.

33. "Maybe not 0 but we'll see." I insist on dropping the nomination cooldown to 0. If people want to change for a map, then regret, there is no reason for them to have to rock the vote 3 maps in a row in order to play the map they were on again. If a map gets played, its 100% the players fault. So please remove this "security" to allow players full control on what map is on the server.
This actually ties into the !ve discussion. If you can rtv to a map immediately after changing off of it, you can bypass the increased !ve requirements by having infinite !ve with only 50% of the players to trigger rtv and vote for the map.

34. If you ever consider re-installing team fortress 2 one day, come to a server, say you are the Admin, then ask everyone on the server to type in the chat precisely "I am a big champion". You will soon realize that you cannot technically have 24 players paying attention to what is happening in the chat and that 100% is not possible unless you are less than 5 on the server and connected less than 5 minutes ago.

So now, second question I want to ask you again because you never answered me: Why do you think that preventing people from playing a map longer is a good idea? The only people on earth which should be telling you to stop playing are your parents because its 1 am. Not the server. So please give me arguments because no one wants that (except TeMP who came out of nowhere to reply on this post even though he is fully moved to ksf, so not playing here and not concerned).
When you're on a map for a long period of time, you think everyone in the community wants to be on the map because they keep !veing it. That, however, is a logical fallacy. You have no idea how many people do NOT want to be on that map, and are simply not playing on the server because of it. Imagine the case where 2 people infinitely keep extending a map that nobody else likes. You could have 20 other people that look at the server list, see that map is on, maybe join and try to change it, fail to change it, and leave again.

36. This is the exact reason why I did put the No option on 1 so its not cheated easily. You are here assuming that this community is stupid and cannot read what is written in the vote and in the chat. People will spam if the vote comes in a scheduled moment, but not if it comes by surprise to the player.

This is also the solution to all our trouble with knowing who wants to extend and who wants to not. After a vote like this, you instantly know who does not want to extend and who does not want to keep playing the map. So what you should do it adding this, and see if people complain. If they do because its too effective and that its should be as obscure as before with no announcement saying in the chat to newer people that rtv and !ve are a thing, then fine put it back as before. But at least give it a try. No one is against this if its not you.
I disagree here, people are more likely to spam if surprised by it I think. Regardless, I think a possible compromise here is to make actual extend votes into a donator feature and leave !ve as is.

39. But why not using a, b, c, d and e all at once? Do you really want to allow people to spam the sm_sl bind to delete all the current saves on the server by removing them as they are older? Do you also really want to not allow people to regret the saves they have done? Do you really want to not increase the number of saves available for 32 players? Its your responsibility to do what is the best for the community.
C fixes everything by itself. If a save is bad it won't get used and will disappear. If a player is spamming, none of them are getting used and he'll just overwrite his own spam.

41. But do you let him work alone with his plugin? Will he ever hear about the suggestions I have for him? How can we contact him?
I'll pass them along, but you have to understand that we are not the primary focus of the plugin. AI is developing it specifically for Jump servers, and spun off a version to work with surf because he thought it would be fun. We're secondary priority for him, and he does all of it in free time around his day job. I can pass suggestions to him but can't force him to work on it (same goes for Malt's timer stuff, though malt has more of an interest in resurfed than AI does).

43. I just wanted to be sure. Too bad though.


I am joking tordana, I am not angry! :D All the points I did not talk about were points I do agree with you and am happy that you take care of them.

I am just so revolted that so many people want something that could be provided with some effort, and you are just not giving them. You are are taking some decisions without giving understandable reasoning behind them (like third person, surf_life_of_duck, map extension and voting) and you don't give the community that plays the opportunity to collaborate with you in order to take together the best resolutions. So let this thread change this!

I am expecting you tordana to answer in a reasonable delay since this message is directly addressed to you.
:)

Oh final note - I'm going out of town tomorrow morning and will not have access to my computer again until Tuesday. I can still read forums but don't expect any long-winded replies or any server fixes from me until then.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:25 am

Woah, I did not expect an answer that fast. It allowed me to understand a lot of your point of view actually.

I forgot to ask this:

19. While surfing is a game very forgiving regarding the amount of ping you have, it really is not when on maps with moving objects you have to anticipate. The best and worse case of that is surf_funhouse, when if you have 300 ping, you have to aim where the hole will be in 2 seconds instead of where you actually see it. And since to have a good run you need all the objects to be at the most optimal position, I don't think that keeping them moving is a good thing as you need a lot of luck to have the best timing of when to start the run and a ridiculous ping sense to aim at obstacles where they are to go through where they aren't.
On my 3 days trial of counter-strife: source, I was able to play the ksf version of surf_funhouse, and it was a much more enjoyable experience as everything was consistent. Maybe it was easier to complete, but having laggy obstacles isn't a game design feature which should add difficulty in a good map anyway.

The examples i can think of are surf_legendary stage 5, surf_fruits stage 5, surf_animals stage 3 and surf_funhouse. Its not a lot of maps, so maybe its not as important as annoying.



Now, my reactions to your answers:

2. I am not sure if a good community must be owned by only one person. But even though we won't become the ITed servers, since on jump.tf they have a link to our forum, I would think we can collaborate anyway. Happy that you understand what I meant.

4. Perfect

7. There might be a few cases where it can cause problem, but I don't see them to be honest. You can always lower all the destinations by 4 units again if you regret

8-9. Perfect

11. But I keep telling you. The reason no one likes crouch-boosting is because its faster than a normal run and that we have both categories mixed together right now. A crouch-boosted run will always be rewarded over a classic run. Which is why people hate: because its not fair with our setup. If you make categories then people cannot complain about it since crouch-boosting will not allow you to get the record on a normal category.

I keep repeating myself, but you don't seem to understand. Lets take a real life example maybe: Doping and cycling. No one sees doping as a good thing. But why? Because they compete with the people who are not doped. If there was a doped category for cycling, there would be no problem for the people who are not doped, as they compete on a fair ground. Doped people will also be able to officially dope themselves and try to see what are the limits of the human body in order to get the fastest times. Don't you think this would be much better like this?

As I also said, crouch-boosting can be used for maps with a boost at start. Please someone read this for once!!!

On surf utopia, the crouchboost category would allow you to telehop with as much speed as you want, while the normal one will require you to start normaly. I really think this could add a lot of vaiety to taht type of maps.

It can be on surf_retroartz, surf_forbidden_waysènjv, surf_rebel_scaz, surf_amplitude_light, etc

In this case, this category should be called boost instead of crouchboost.

12. Malt said that angled surfing is very hard to code, that not that many people does that anyway and that you can cheat them with binds since its not even 100% accurate. I agree with his point of view. However, since crouch-boosting really gives much bigger difference in terms of times, gameplay and type of skill involved, giving it its own category really

13. Ah? Well if tip of the hat changes his formula it should be interesting. Take your time to make it I guess, even though it could be a lot of fun.

14. Yes, if you give me the ability to do so, I will put in the numbers of the categories described as speed, angles, reflexes and length of the map.

16. Well yes, add it or remove it completely, but don't let it half here and have not here. Even though there are better quality maps, there are also a few maps as bad as surf_life_of_duck that are on the server without any trouble to be honest.

17. Surf_christmas behaves strangely yeah, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it soon on the servers. Also malt is working on telstar at the moment

20. I think I am also one of the only person who gives himself the opportunity for things to change in a better way by talking about it. Which is why in the few minutes per month you spend on the server, you can only see me speaking about it. But lets see what Epi was able to do.

22. What are you hiding with these last digits? Is there something suspicious behind them? Everyone is fully aware that on 66 ticks server, the last digits are not inaccurate. But if they are the digits which decide what rank you are, then please allow us to see them. It cost literally nothing. I don't know why you are showing so much resistance about it. let people be at least curious without having to wait for one of you two, tordana and malt to connect on the server.
People will just be able to SEE them, not to CHANGE them.

26. You have an hidechat command on the server which is supposed to hide the chat. What I suggestion you to do is to implement in this single !hidechat command options to:

Mute both server and irc chat
Mute the Server chat
Mute the IRC chat

Mute one person through irc (people almost never change their name anyway)
Mute one person on the server (even though you can do that for the menu for both chat and voice, and forever)


I just think it would make it convenient to access all of that with one command. When you say you can manually mute people, then you can say the same for the !spec command,since you can join the spectating team at any time through the menu.

30. HAHA! That makes much more sense. You never said you will not allow it because it can be dangerous to keep cheats set to 1. I understand your point of view now.

For surf_beginner stage 4 shorcut, the gap is 50 units tall and the crouched tf2 model is 49. Even with third person, you cannot visualize your hitbox with one uunit of difference.

Third person in this situation gives less information that first person since in first person you can precisly approach the hole with positioning on the ramp, while when on third person you would see your character move weirdly, and even if you eventually manage to get in the hole, the camera will be obstructed and flick to inside your head since the ceiling will be very low in the shortcut.

When turning your aim in team fortress 2, you first move your head, then the shoulders and all your body if your head is turned as far as it could. Since there are 45° where the body is facing in the same direction (so 8 direction in total), it means again that thirdperson point of view is less accurate of where you are aiming than your first person point of view.

Both your weak arguments are wrong, but you saved your point by saying that allowing it could leak the server's integrity with people exploiting sv_cheats turned to 1. Although, if you can noclip without cheats set to 1, why wouldn't you be able to see in thirdperson without them set to 1 too? You can't do that with plugins?

33. You can currently bypass the !ve limitation by rtving the map 5 times anyway. So you have 2 solutions: Removing the maps of the servers as they get played so you are sure no one can rtv until playing it again. Or being okay with the fact that a map can get played twice (even if not by the same people) and put the cooldown to 0. Like surf_life_of_duck, having a half set up makes no sense.

36. "I disagree here, people are more likely to spam if surprised by it I think." Why do you assume people are stupid? I promise that if you put the announcements in the chat and instructions clear everywhere with a cooperating community, everyone will use this feature correctly. Please stop assuming that the community is stupid and that they are not able to make good decisions because that's really not how people are, nor how they want to be treated. As I said, give this plugin a chance and removing it after 2 weeks of trial if you realize it does not work. Try it, THEN say the people are retarded. Not the opposite.

41. Good. Please note that all the SurfBOT suggestions I did can be used for jumping too, so there is no reason he would not care about them.



"Oh final note - I'm going out of town tomorrow morning and will not have access to my computer again until Tuesday. I can still read forums but don't expect any long-winded replies or any server fixes from me until then."

Don't worry, you don't have to make a long response for this message, I just want you to realize that you can do a lot of things that you don't seem to realize that it can make the community happier in general. Enjoy your trip! :D
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Nastybutler » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:59 am

Okay. MY turn.


Only gonna touch up on a few of these subjects, because tordana put up a better explanation than I have the patience to write. But for you sheep, I'll write down a few of my ideas:


A few things:

I was working on surf_christmas and surf_telstar both. Surf_telstar is an easy port, just needs a few things to make it a proper skillsurf map. (Removing the jail, making it a decent linear for a replayable surf, etc.)

Surf_Christmas however, is a COMPLETE clusterfuck. We've had it working before on iT, but for some odd reason, when we started ReSurfed, it completely crashed everybody's server....even mine. Kelao and I have been working on this map for AGES trying to get it to work, and we still are. Both of us trusted mappers, we've already been through everything we could think of to get it to work, even asking help from Panzer himself for any ideas on how to get it to work on tf2...and none of us can make it work on a timer.

Trust me when I say this, we absolutely have NO clue why it won't work. If you think you can try and figure out what's wrong, then by all means. I invite anybody to give it a go. If you do manage to figure it out and it properly working on REsurfed...just think. Everybody will remember you for it.


Second off, BASE Jumper can be blocked with stripper. I have the hammer know how to do it on a per-map basis. It'll take me a bit to get it working with a global variable on stripper, but it IS possible....which means we can have soldiers back!

As far as TAS goes, that will have to be a plugin written by scratch on a seperate server...because if Steam detects any tools affecting natural gameplay, that's a VAC ban. A seperate server because I don't think Tord would want a TAS messing up all the hard work we've put into this network to make it what it is today. Since it's something you really want, I'll do some testing on my own server for you, sheep. I'll let you know if I get anything.

Max Velocity issue:

The max velocity issue can be resolved with a few simple fixes in stripper. I can give whoever needs the information on how to fix that.

surf_delusional, surf_bob and surf_lodypreview:

Tordana already touched on lody, so I won't. As far as delusional and bob goes, the random stage logic in delusional CANbe removed to make it a simple staged map like on KSF, which will make it a lot easier for us to setup the timer for it properly. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. OR, the timer IS NOW flexible to work with random stages due to malt adding new triggers to the timer such as cst_stage, cst_teleport, etc. However, I won't force anybody to use them in hammer if they're confused on how they work. OR, if anybody actually has a KSF version, you can easily port that over to tf2 and it'll work just as well. Surf_bob, all you have to do is remove the sc's from the map, and there shouldn't be any problem on getting it added to the server. That's the only thing stopping it, because the sc's will conflict with the timer and keep you from completing the map.

Kitsune? Fuck no. Wait for kitsune 2. #HYPE (And before you say anything, surf_kitsune2 IS real, and in progress as we speak.)

Dynamic Props:

Models that move are called 'dynamic props', like all the moving things in surf_funhouse, surf_tricky_chaos, etc. In my opinion, I think they should stay in the map because that's the way the author originally intended the map to be to begin with. Anybody here that's ported maps have ALL heard me say "keep the map as original as possible". You're not here to alter the map, you're just here to broaden the horizons and get more people to play it. I would rather give credit to an author for a shitty map than to have it way to easy. Just think of all the time the author puts in a map...a typical surf map takes about 6 months to make, and it's not an easy task. If you want something that's really easy, make your own!

I would LOVE to see a surf_shadow_sheep :D



Removing the 'crunch' sound when falling:

That can easily be removed with stripper as well. The sound file is loaded in the map, not the game. I don't know exactly what it's called, but with a little research and some work with stripper, I'm pretty sure I can get it to work.

NEWS for Tordana:

There is a plugin that allows donator trails. Don't remember what it's called, but it does exist.

I'll see what I can do about getting stripper working again, I have my VPN setup again.

And, that about covers it. If I think of more stuff, I'll add it.
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Insomnia
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Insomnia » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:29 pm

I'd like to add my opinion on some of these things...

-The majority of players find crouchboosting stupid, but I really don't think that Malt wants to spend the rest of his summer coding a whole new database with times only using telehops or crouchboosts or w/e. Most of us do find it kind of dumb, but tolerable, and making a whole new database, in my opinion, seems really unnecessary. If you're gonna do anything at all, just remove the ability to crouchboost altogether. As for telehop times, I think that the maps that do have telehops were indirectly made for telehopping them. They're just boring if you don't telehop, and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage when not telehopping. I understand the competitive aspect of it, but in my opinion it just seems unnecessary.

-Some of us want angle surf timers, but so few of us use it that it's not worth writing a different database to store times done in angles. It would be cool, but practically useless (aside from a few players.)

-I honestly think that adding more description to tiers wouldn't be too confusing, but please do it in a way that makes sense. Some categories are totally arbitrary, and others are just confusing. I suggest maybe instead of putting more tier information in the actual server, instead making a link to the forums run entirely by Sheep, that will let you view the advanced/more complicated info about certain maps.

-I think that life_of _duck should just be removed from the whole database. Unless Aus runs on a different database (which I'm pretty sure isn't the truth). life_of_duck is seriously the dumbest map, and it would be no detriment to anyone in letting it get removed. Unless, of course, it fucks up the aus servers badly or something....idunno. Remove it if you can, if not, add it to the rest of the easy servers. It'd be better to remove it though, as times are fucked because of Aus ping.

-I just want a !hideirc command. plsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

-Honestly, don't add thirdperson view. Dumb, stupid, pointless.

-I think there'd be a lot of chaos around making the map nomination cooldown go to 0. We'll see what happens, but it seems as if we're treading on thin ice with this one.

-I love the idea of making extend votes a donator feature. It works in KSF and It'll work here, I'm sure of it.

This is my opinion on some of the more pressing matters. As for the other stuff, I think it's fine.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Epi » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:13 pm

Implemented some of the smaller suggestions on EU today -
Added a chat filter for !restart and !teleport. Sadly, that also means you can't say "type !teleport to get speed". Still unsure about this change.
Added a menu triggered by !commands that displays most of the commands and their uses, taken from HERE. If I left any important ones out, let me know.
Re-wrote announcements to fit the above changes.
Increased easy server to 32 slots due to recent popularity.

That's pretty much it from me for a while, unless more easy to implement suggestions come up.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by asscmalt » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:27 pm

I found / fixed a plugin that does that a while back. https://forums.alliedmods.net/showpost. ... stcount=39
I can try loading that, iirc it shouldn't filter commands that aren't at the start.
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Shadow Sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:35 pm

I feel like reacting to what you people said in this forum topic. So here are my opinions on your messages:
@tordana

You lied again! surf_kitsune is not nominatable on the EU or USA servers, I just checked 10 minutes ago! Please add it again or delete it completely.
@Nastybutler
Nastybutler wrote:Surf_Christmas however, is a COMPLETE clusterfuck. We've had it working before on iT, but for some odd reason, when we started ReSurfed, it completely crashed everybody's server....even mine. Kelao and I have been working on this map for AGES trying to get it to work, and we still are. Both of us trusted mappers, we've already been through everything we could think of to get it to work, even asking help from Panzer himself for any ideas on how to get it to work on tf2...and none of us can make it work on a timer.

Trust me when I say this, we absolutely have NO clue why it won't work. If you think you can try and figure out what's wrong, then by all means. I invite anybody to give it a go. If you do manage to figure it out and it properly working on REsurfed...just think. Everybody will remember you for it.
I was just saying that surf_christmas was crashing my game and that decompiling then compiling it fixed it. But I never considered if it would work with the timer. I just think that its a map that works mostly and that fixing something that is supposed to work can be very confusing to do. The only way I can think of is that if you group triggers with the same functions together, it will count as less entities. Since I heard (don't quote me on that) that the timer was crashing because there is too many triggers, maybe it might be a solution. I could try doing that one day and send it, but I noticed most of the trails in my version I got seem disabled. kelao told me he has a more recent version though so i could see with him if I can do something.
Nastybutler wrote:As far as TAS goes, that will have to be a plugin written by scratch on a seperate server...because if Steam detects any tools affecting natural gameplay, that's a VAC ban. A seperate server because I don't think Tord would want a TAS messing up all the hard work we've put into this network to make it what it is today. Since it's something you really want, I'll do some testing on my own server for you, sheep. I'll let you know if I get anything.
let me tell you why I don't think TASing can cause VAC issues. All a TAS is about is:

-Making saves (like the ones we currently have on resurfed)

-Slowing down the game (using the console command host_timescale)

-Writing a separated .txt file with all the keys and mouse movements done each tick in it, and having a way to replay it (like the SurfBOT feature we currently have on resurfed)

Thats really all it takes to make a TAS. None of these features got anyone VAC banned, and all we have to do is writing a plugin with these 3 features together, allow with some informations (like the position of you and the coordinates of your hitbox, your speed, etc...).

To be very simple, a TAS is basicaly a segmented run which gets recorded into a macro, allowing you to play it back.

So yeah, maybe its less complicated than you may think Nastybutler.
Nastybutler wrote:surf_delusional, surf_bob and surf_lodypreview:

Tordana already touched on lody, so I won't. As far as delusional and bob goes, the random stage logic in delusional CANbe removed to make it a simple staged map like on KSF, which will make it a lot easier for us to setup the timer for it properly. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. OR, the timer IS NOW flexible to work with random stages due to malt adding new triggers to the timer such as cst_stage, cst_teleport, etc. However, I won't force anybody to use them in hammer if they're confused on how they work. OR, if anybody actually has a KSF version, you can easily port that over to tf2 and it'll work just as well. Surf_bob, all you have to do is remove the sc's from the map, and there shouldn't be any problem on getting it added to the server. That's the only thing stopping it, because the sc's will conflict with the timer and keep you from completing the map.
We already discussed that on the servers, but I will say my idea again.

You can do something absolutly similar than what you did on surf_depths: timing the map as if it was a linear map, even though its staged.

For surf_delusion, put start trigger at spawn and end trigger at capture point room. Thats it. People really will not mind not having checkpoints since they can't complain about finaly being able to play that map anyway and the map is short too (on surf_it, we did not have checkpoints and it was fine).

For surf_delusion, mazzo already posted on this forum surf_bob without the shortcuts here viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1387. And even if you couldn't remove the shortcuts, you can still put checkpoints on stage 7, stage 8, stage 9, stage 10 and stage 11 since they are not shippable anyway. Or time the map as 6 stages, first stage being 1-7, second 7, 3rd 8, 4th 9, 5th 10 and 6th 11. And I don't allow you to play the "its a bad map" card on this one because its a really decent map. So now you have no reason to not add it to the server.

For surf_lodypreview, tordana has no reason to troll people that don't play actively on the server since more than a year, so now you can add it again (even if it has kz in it. Surf_depris_h has some bhops in the bonus and you still allowed it on the server).
Nastybutler wrote:Kitsune? Fuck no. Wait for kitsune 2. #HYPE (And before you say anything, surf_kitsune2 IS real, and in progress as we speak.)
Kitsune is still in my opinion one of the best map to learn how to surf on if you had never heard of surfing before. The level design makes the objectives clear and the difficulty scale is also well managed through the map. I don't see anything with that map to be honest, and your "Fuck no." does not help. It might be nothing compared to surf_kitsune2, but if you take surf_overgrowth for example, its not because surf_overgrowth2 is way better made in general that surf_overgrowth became a bad map. I really think its a map worth keeping. Also tordana lied: surf_kitsune is not available on EU and USA server, neither is surf_kitsune_fix
Nastybutler wrote:Dynamic Props:

Models that move are called 'dynamic props', like all the moving things in surf_funhouse, surf_tricky_chaos, etc. In my opinion, I think they should stay in the map because that's the way the author originally intended the map to be to begin with. Anybody here that's ported maps have ALL heard me say "keep the map as original as possible". You're not here to alter the map, you're just here to broaden the horizons and get more people to play it. I would rather give credit to an author for a shitty map than to have it way to easy. Just think of all the time the author puts in a map...a typical surf map takes about 6 months to make, and it's not an easy task. If you want something that's really easy, make your own!
The thing with these maps though is that they were not designed for timed surfing at first when they were created (not even surf_appolonian with the door closing on your face if someone opened before you reach it). Since we want to provide players the best surfing experience on our timed server, we have to garantee them some consistency in the way the map behaves. And in my opinion, dodging moving objects by charging into them because you have 300 ping isn't as the map was intended to be played originally anyway. So either you remake the map so whatever delay you have, the rotating object is always where you see it client side, either you remove these broken "features" which add "challenge" and "creativity" to a "fair" map design. If people want to play the map like the mappers intended them to play it, they can still load the map offline and play it to get close to intended map experience.
Nastybutler wrote:I would LOVE to see a surf_shadow_sheep :D
I have a list of ideas at least twice as long as this suggestion thread to put in my map, but I can never start it because each time I think about putting the first brushes, I think to myself that there is a better way to make it. So yeah. I think I could make it once I dare starting it though (also the name wont be surf_shadow_sheep because its a very bad name in general).


@Insomnia
Insomnia wrote:-The majority of players find crouchboosting stupid, but I really don't think that Malt wants to spend the rest of his summer coding a whole new database with times only using telehops or crouchboosts or w/e. Most of us do find it kind of dumb, but tolerable, and making a whole new database, in my opinion, seems really unnecessary. If you're gonna do anything at all, just remove the ability to crouchboost altogether. As for telehop times, I think that the maps that do have telehops were indirectly made for telehopping them. They're just boring if you don't telehop, and you're putting yourself at a disadvantage when not telehopping. I understand the competitive aspect of it, but in my opinion it just seems unnecessary.
The reason people find crouch-boosting stupid is because its not fair. Its not fair because crouch-boosters and not-crouch-boosters are in the same category. Resurfed timers rules are simple: fastest wins.

What we have on the server is a crouch-boosted category because you are free to abuse boosts in most of the maps. You have to think reversed Insomnia. What we need to do is creating a database for not-crouch-boosted times where people get stopped if they go too fast on certain parts. At the end, 2 categories: one where you have to surf normal, one where surfing normal wont get you anywhere. This method also allows you to surf surf_eclipse, surf_1969, surf_utopia and many more at normal speed instead of high speed, which can be more interesting then you want us to think, since thats exactly what they do on ksf.

Making these 2 categories will make crouch-boosting fair, since there is no mix between different types of run. If its fair, its not stupid anymore.

What everyone keeps saying since the start of this thread as a counter argument is that people don't like crouch-boosting and find it stupid. They don't like is as a consequence of it not being fair with our current timer setup, and not because of the nature of the trick. Removing the cause of this solution will solve the problem.

As I said earlier, the whole database is only a few tens of megabyte, so even multiplying the current database by 10 would not matter in any way.

In case you really don't want to understand the current situation, let me illustrate with an analogy. I am now writting in pink so I am sure that you are reading this:

Imagine that Resurfed servers had only one surfing class: heavy. He is fat, he is slow, he is russian and he is alone. You cannot use any other character. For everyone's mind, surfing as not heavy is incredibly stupid because thats not how surfing was ever intended to be played.

Then one day, no more class restriction. People can now play as scout.

Now everyone complains because scout is not fat at all and flies so fast in the air that playing as scout guarantees you to get the world record on any map you play on with it.

YOUR POINT OF VIEW: Scout is stupid. Pootis is love, pootis is life. Heavy shall be the only way resurfed must be played. Lets kill all the scouts!

MY POINT OF VIEW: Scout is faster. But Scout has a unique type of gameplay which adds to the way surfing works in general, making the way surfing in general works more creative. But making fun of fat people is bad because its maybe not their entire fault if they are. So instead of stealing the records of heavies, we will have a special timer only reserved for scouts. Scouts can now compete hard to beat other scouts, while heavies can compete in the noble category. One day there was even a heavy so good that he did beat a scouts world record. That day was a legendary day for everyone on Resurfed.

Morale of the story: Both points of views have the same consequence on the heavy gang: no scouts are allowed in it. But with my solution, instead of segregating the scouts out of resurfed, we allowed them to play and develop scout only tricks which made their game more interesting than most of the heavies even expected. By doing that, we also diversified the way surfing was being played. Later on, if rocket jumping soldiers want to come on the server, then the welcoming heavies will create a 3rd category just for them, and so on.

What I mean with all of that is that people complain because even a bad crouch-boosted run can get you a good time. But with a crouch-boosted category, we can have crouch-boosters making very competitive crouch-boosted times because of how perfect they are. Having more speed than intended in surfing is always challenging. The soldiers in my story are a question I now want to ask you to see if you understood how to react now. If we ever happen to find a new glitch that significantly impacts the way times can be done in surfing (lets say you can clip though walls for a few ticks with a special angle when flying toward it). Should we ban it or allow the community to see what the game's limit are to have a more knowledgeable community in general? My answer is, we should at least give it a chance if we make sure it can't leak.


Making a crouch-boosting category is easier. All the times we currently have can be considered crouch-boosted and can be transferred into the crouch-boosted category. the normal one will be blank, and now people can start fresh on a data where no one can cheat.

Your plan is to remove it. What you will have to do is making a category where no one can cheat, then painfully watch the 250+ maps, 800+ stages and the 150+ bonuses to find what times are crouch-boosted and what times are not in order to remove them one by one. At the end, no one will be able to crouch-boost in the normal category, and admins will have lost their life on the database in order to make the changes.

Look at Tempus, they have a separated category for soldier and demoman, because they know that demoman can be faster most of the times, but has its own interesting gameplay feature too. So both are co-existing and no demoman can compete in the soldier section. Now think about it.
Insomnia wrote:-I honestly think that adding more description to tiers wouldn't be too confusing, but please do it in a way that makes sense. Some categories are totally arbitrary, and others are just confusing. I suggest maybe instead of putting more tier information in the actual server, instead making a link to the forums run entirely by Sheep, that will let you view the advanced/more complicated info about certain maps.
I am sorry to tell you insomnia, but between the tier number, the quantification of speed, of precision with angles, of reflexes needed and of map length, the most arbitrary criteria is the tier. For your information, this is the way we are currently judging if maps are hard or not. I don't see why having a detailed description of the map would be too confusing for anyone who speaks English and I don't see why the timer plugin wouldn't be able to display string lines on the screen when queried by a player. A !help command can still be used in case people don't know what the parameters have to do with surfing.

I like your idea though of having a short description in the !mi of the map, then a much detailed one about the map itself on the forum if needed. I think that is the way it should be implemented. For example, in the "additional information" section of !mi surf_kalium2, you can display "the map is dark"
Insomnia wrote:
Insomnia wrote: life_of_duck is seriously the dumbest map, and it would be no detriment to anyone in letting it get removed.
Insomnia wrote:-Honestly, don't add thirdperson view. Dumb, stupid, pointless.
"Dumb", like "Stupid" is a subjective terms used to represent your personal view of something. In no way you explained why surf_life_of_duck is dumb, nor you did for the thirdperson feature. If you want to convince people to not do something, you have to bring them arguments allowing them to understand why you think something, unless they already are agree with you to start with. Now here is what i think:

I don't personally like surf_life_of_duck. But I am not thinking for myself, I am thinking for everyone else. If no one likes a map, no one will ever vote for it and it will never get played. But surf_life_of_ducks gets played on the Australian server, meaning that it exists an audience who are willing to play this map for reasons that do not concern us. If you really are allergic to a map, no one forced you to launch the game to connect on the server in question, so its better to just leave it. Even if you dare considering surf_life_of_ducks as a bad map for some arbitrary reasons which does not allow you to judge what a map is anyway, keep in mind that players cannot enjoy a good map as good if they don't know what a good map is. You only realize what a good map is when playing maps less good. Now, this map in on AUS and you can't remove it, so the best decision is to add it everyone else and give them the chance to play it on this server.

I agree with you on the point that third person is "pointless", but its only because the features it brings are not surfing related. Which means that adding it or not adding it has strictly no consequence to the server in general and the surfing physics. It also does not take any coding effort to implement since its just a console command available in team fortress 2 without any mod. Now as tordana said earlier, adding thirdperson requires to enable cheats on the resurfed servers, which we are not ready to do in any circumstance since it could potentially become an exploitable leak for people with different intentions that ours, which is to develop this community to its best potential. Thats why even before you did post this message thirdperson was already out of question.
Insomnia wrote:-I think there'd be a lot of chaos around making the map nomination cooldown go to 0.
The biggest risk we have is having people playing their favorite maps for longer on the servers, which they could already do with 5 rtvs in a row or a server crash. So unless you make a detailed explanation on what the "risks" are, I don't really see what you mean here.
Insomnia wrote:-I love the idea of making extend votes a donator feature. It works in KSF and It'll work here, I'm sure of it.
Why would donators be the only people capable of gathering the opinion of all the active players of the server? If players want to do something and agree on doing it, at least give them an efficient way of concreting their wish. My suggestion works both ways. Someone can just type !rtv, and a vote appears "Do you want to change to the next map? No/Yes" and the map is changed in 15 seconds. Surf_it had this feature allowed for everyone, and it was working very well. No one ever complained about it.


I agree with all the other things you said that I did not quote. Please make sure next time to give reasons along your opinions so I can understand how wrong I am on the things I am defending.

@Epi
Insomnia wrote:Implemented some of the smaller suggestions on EU today -
Added a chat filter for !restart and !teleport. Sadly, that also means you can't say "type !teleport to get speed". Still unsure about this change.
Added a menu triggered by !commands that displays most of the commands and their uses, taken from HERE. If I left any important ones out, let me know.
Re-wrote announcements to fit the above changes.
Increased easy server to 32 slots due to recent popularity.

That's pretty much it from me for a while, unless more easy to implement suggestions come up.
Great job on the implementation. I am happy that things are finally getting done! :D

@malt

This is a suggestion I did not think about adding on the list, but I guess I wont have to! great call Epi and you on this feature.


If you think I misunderstood anything about what you said, think that what I think sucks more than what you think or want me to develop on any of my opinions, feel free to post a message below. I don't care about being humiliated as long as I learn something out it. Thank you everyone in general for all your support and attention regarding the servers and the community.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Insomnia » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:17 pm

Alright. I get what you're saying about separate time categories now, it's much clearer to see things from other people's perspectives.

However, I do feel that, in my own personal opinion, life_of_duck still should be removed. I just feel like the map is poorly designed, is annoying, and not fun to surf. I apologize for wording it as if the general consensus was that everyone hates the map, but everyone has their slew of maps that they don't like or aren't interested in playing, and for me, life_of_duck is one of them. You don't really need to explain yourself as to why you don't like a map, you just don't sometimes. I'd like to see the times removed, however, if we do decide to put it on the other SuSurf servers, because Aus ping makes it easy to lag times. There wouldn't be a big uproar if we did put it on the other servers, but the times are so cheated on that map that it's not worth playing on the other servers as it is.

As for map tiers, yes. 100% agree.

And for the map cooldown, I thought it was on a specific timer? Like, you have to wait a few hours before a map is playable again, not just through rtv-ing maps over and over again. I may be wrong though, but I thought that's how it worked.

For donators being able to cast extend votes, usually when you're a donor, you know how things work, and giving that power to a player that doesn't really know what's going on seems unfair. That's my reason for wanting donator privileges like that, but I'd be willing to see what happens with your idea, and hopefully it does work out. If not, I'd love to see donator privileges like those.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:39 pm

Insomnia wrote:And for the map cooldown, I thought it was on a specific timer? Like, you have to wait a few hours before a map is playable again, not just through rtv-ing maps over and over again. I may be wrong though, but I thought that's how it worked.
I used to think that too, but turns out its based on the number of maps. Before being able to nominate a map in the vote, you must wait 5 map rotation (like its setup right now on our server). The fastest way to do that is by typing rtv. Putting the cooldown to 0 map rotation would save people from switching 5 other arbitrary map to play the one they got changed on. If you implement the voting system I talked about in my suggestion 36. anyway, there is no reason for it to become a problem since a map will only change if the players on the server really wanted to because all the active players gave their opinion. Speaking about that:
Insomnia wrote:For donators being able to cast extend votes, usually when you're a donor, you know how things work, and giving that power to a player that doesn't really know what's going on seems unfair. That's my reason for wanting donator privileges like that, but I'd be willing to see what happens with your idea, and hopefully it does work out. If not, I'd love to see donator privileges like those.
Why being able to vote and give your opinion should be a privilege? I think you are forgetting that when you type !ve in my suggestion, you are not voting: you are proposing a vote to the server where every active players gives their opinion or decide what should be done. You are then free to vote or not after typing the command.

Since its a vote for all the server, I honestly think that who triggers the vote does not matter at this point, since the result will always be the same. This feature is also really effective to know instantly what all the active players are up to, so you can know if they want to revote the next set map, or if they simply want to move on to an other map. This feature is supposed to help everyone, not just the people with shiny rainbow tags. If you want to steal people's money to help supporting the servers cost, the best way is to give the player all the features to help him, so he can be ultra satisfied of the servers and want to donate. You don't do that by setting up pay to play features. I insist on the fact that only the players on the server and all of them should decide about what is being played on it.
Insomnia wrote:Alright. I get what you're saying about separate time categories now, it's much clearer to see things from other people's perspectives.
Insomnia wrote:As for map tiers, yes. 100% agree.
My goal was not to make you forget what you had against me but to understand where i was wrong and what were the possible flaws of my ideas. But if you judge that what I think can be acceptable, I am at least thanking you for taking the time to read what i had to say, and you saying that you agree with my ideas really gives me a lot of support, which I appreciate greatly because it gives a meaning to what I am actually doing. So thank you insomnia.
Insomnia wrote:However, I do feel that, in my own personal opinion, life_of_duck still should be removed. I just feel like the map is poorly designed, is annoying, and not fun to surf. I apologize for wording it as if the general consensus was that everyone hates the map, but everyone has their slew of maps that they don't like or aren't interested in playing, and for me, life_of_duck is one of them. You don't really need to explain yourself as to why you don't like a map, you just don't sometimes. I'd like to see the times removed, however, if we do decide to put it on the other SuSurf servers, because Aus ping makes it easy to lag times. There wouldn't be a big uproar if we did put it on the other servers, but the times are so cheated on that map that it's not worth playing on the other servers as it is.
Well, at least you make it clear that its you opinion. But I see something more into. I see the fact that you had a terrible experience with that map and that you wish no one will have the bad luck to live what you experienced on this map. I understand that feeling. But I think that if some people want to play it and that map counts on the timer, it would not be cool to prevent them from doing it. So yeah, my opinion is either remove completly or add officialy. Not in-between like right.


Also everyone, I edited my first post so you have at the end a list of all the suggestions in case you don't want to read again through all of it and only need the essential points on them. I think it will also hep people just coming into this discussion to situate where things are at, and it will also help the people who cand o thing to know easily where they are at. So there it is!
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by skip tracer » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:11 pm

ctrl F "lodypreview" finally worked in one topic, and i like what i'm reading!!!!
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