Suggestions...or something I guess

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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Epi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:19 pm

asscmalt wrote:I found / fixed a plugin that does that a while back. ... stcount=39
I can try loading that, iirc it shouldn't filter commands that aren't at the start.
This works perfectly, thank you!
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by not_a_zombie » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:55 am

Shadow Sheep wrote:

15. Allow the community to vote and update the map tiers (require 1. to be implemented)
Edit 19/07/2015: tordana said that posting a suggestion the forum is also enough if you want to report an irrelevant tier. it does not require a dedicated timer feature.

Tiers are a number from 1 to 6 to basically judge how hard a map is compared tot eh other ones. The problem is that if at a date we decide to say that a map is tier 1 and that one is tier 6, then that will cause problems for later. The problems are caused by the fact the the community is making progress and improving at surfing in general, making through the process more challenging maps. So in the old referential, maps that are harder are of course tier 6, but then later a good tier 5 can be changed to a hard tier 4 etc.

So my mind about that is that tiers can eventually become outdated and should need a refresh on some of them to keep them accurate. So I think there should be a way somewhere to suggest a new tier on a map in-game or on the forums so other people can say their thoughts about them and make them more relevant together as a community would do. Accordingly, maybe it can have for consequences to make maps switch from a server to an other because its too hard or because its too easy.
tordana wrote:

15. Worthy of a forum section to discuss changes. Most tiers are either guessed by me after playing the map for a while, or copied from KSF. Either way can lead to errors.
However, I STRONGLY disagree in re-tiering maps as the community on average gets better. That deletes any sense of progression people get. ("Yay I beat a T5 for the first time! Oh shit it used to be T5 but now it's T3, I still fucking suck") If we need harder tiers there's no reason why we can't add 7 and 8. But I don't think it's needed right now.
I discussed this with sheep in game, and I feel like the point was miscommunicated or misunderstood.

Rather than purposefully changing tiers as time goes on, react to tiers having changed. Sheep gave two examples - surf_beyer, tier 5, is easier than surf_beyer2, tier 4, and ksf used to classify surf_ing as tier 3, but now consider it tier 2. There is a lot of inconsistency in map tiers, and some of it is due to change over time. Sheep's suggestion is not a deliberate devaluation of tiers, just a response to how they have been assigned differently to newer or older maps.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:23 am

Thank you not_a_zombie for pointing out my bad formulation!

I edited the suggestion 15 to make it more clear about what I meant.

I also had to move suggestion 22-30 to the second post because of the 60000 characters limit and because I wanted to keep the form clean.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by mr.gmmbearz » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:32 pm

what is even conga surf style ? i mean style from normal, sw, hsw and bw so what conga is ?
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:00 am

mr.gmmbearz wrote:what is even conga surf style ? i mean style from normal, sw, hsw and bw so what conga is ?
When the conga came out, everyone was doing the conga on the server (creating also massive lags at that time).

Then people started falling off the start platforms and realized that you could stay on ramps while doing the conga animation. You can even rotate your moves slowly by using the strafe keys.

So conga surfing is basically like W-only surfing with low cl_yawspeed +left and +right binds. I have reached the 4th ramps of some easy maps using conga only and its actually challenging in some way. For bonuses like surf_fast or surf_aircontrol, you have to aim at some risky angles to not hit corners.

But I would understand that Malt does not implement a conga timer, since there are not really any surf map designed for conga surfing yet and that you do it mostly for fun in general, not for speedrunning. It also requires to own and equip the item, which makes it not fair for anyone anyway. So yeah bearz, I would advise to take the conga surfing category less seriously than the rest of the list. Keep in mind that I say all the ideas I have because even if I know its not doable at the moment, telling them can give other people other better ideas they wouldn't have thought of and we can that way keep the positive brain-storming going.

I would like also to advise Mr.tordana and malt that the list is currently filling up faster than its content gets implemented. I am fully aware that you are both pretty busy at the moment, and that the timer rewrite in the future will make things easier in the future to maybe put. However, there are a few suggestions in the list that literally take an hour of work at most for them, and that the result will be visible by everyone and really appreciated by the community. Let me list the ones I am thinking about when i say that:
Shadow Sheep wrote:7. Put info_teleport_destination of the Resurfed Timer at least one unit above the ground
Go in the database, select all the teleport destinations, add one to the Z value. I really hope that's as simple as that. Also malt please tell me if there is also a way to make it spawn one unit higher when admins do the command and if its currently fixed. I have no way to know.

Shadow Sheep wrote:16. Put back on the server maps that count on the timer, like surf_kitsune surf_life_of_duck
surf_kitsune is still not playable on any server and still give completion points, group points, top 10 points and world record points to the people who had the "luck" to play it before it was removed. So you have to remove the map from the data or to add it to the servers. If you don't want to add the map to the server because it has things in it that do not work the way you want, just ask me and I'll fix it. Same for surf_life_of_duck.
Shadow Sheep wrote:20. Improve the obsolete announcements in the chat to make them adapted to the audience on the server
Just copy-paste Epi's ones from the EU servers: they are good (lacks a !profile/ranks announcement though).
Shadow Sheep wrote:24. Make the !teleport or !r commands have a sided parameter
I hope its easy as is sounds, but just add a parameter to the !r command and other admins will add the referring destinations if they want.
Shadow Sheep wrote:25. Implement a !end command
We don't need that bonus 0 slot anyway. Again, I hope its as easy as creating a !s command spelled !end to teleport to a destination with the same name.
Shadow Sheep wrote:28. Put a /hop command
Its not a life changing one, but I am just listing the fast ones.
Shadow Sheep wrote:33. Remove the nominating cool-down after a map is played
One setting to change.
Shadow Sheep wrote:34. Remove the !ve limitation and put it as infinite as before
One setting to change.
Shadow Sheep wrote:42. Reduce the re-spray delay to default (to be implemented on the American servers).
According to Epi, all you have to do is to delete the older obsolete config to let the new one take effect.
Shadow Sheep wrote:44. Remove the « Scrrritch » noise playing when taking « fall damage »

Put that in a mapname_level_sounds.txt file packed with the map, or work it with strippers and the fall damage noise will be removed.

You can also remove resupply lockers sound by replacing "Player.FallDamage" with "Regenerate.Touch".

Special thanks to Kelao for giving me this tip.

Shadow Sheep wrote:45. Allow slower classes to be played on the surf servers
Random flying misc with !hide does not compensate the challenge and the character variety that 3 other classes add to the game. Someone who does not know that heavy is slower than a sniper is someone who just installed the game. Having 70u/s less speed does not make any difference for easier maps anyway (and beginners have the habit of pressing s in the air above the first ramp, so here being a slow class makes no difference).
Shadow Sheep wrote:46. Having more color choice for the theme of the timer in the !options menu Suggested by Insomnia (10/07/2015)
Just create colors and add them to the list. I am sure that it will not take you 20 minutes to come up with colors other than green and blue.
Shadow Sheep wrote:50. When skipping a stage, replace the message it says from "You have teleported forward in the map. Timer disabled." to "You have teleported forward in the map. Map run cancelled." Suggested by mr.gmmbearz (27/07/2015)
This formulation is less confusing to what actually skipping stages does. You just have to replace the text.

I hope that after a months of waiting something will eventually happen. Good luck!
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by stig » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:35 pm

Sheep, you need to understand that your ideas may not be implemented simply because the server owners don't want to implement them. You do not have any say as to what goes into the final timer build. You are simply presenting suggestions. Stop insisting that everything in this list be implemented immediately.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:23 pm

stig wrote:Sheep, you need to understand that your ideas may not be implemented simply because the server owners don't want to implement them. You do not have any say as to what goes into the final timer build. You are simply presenting suggestions. Stop insisting that everything in this list be implemented immediately.
The thing is:
tordana wrote:Full responses[...]

7. Yep. The teleports are all set by admins (usually me) in-game by typing in a console command while standing at the location. For some recent maps I've started instead binding a command for each stage to a key, then JUMPING at the location and hitting the bind to fix this. It's a lot of time to fix all of them, but I can fix the more egregious ones if I know where they are. Forum thread incoming soon for this[...]

16. Kitsune on the list. Duck not the list, because fuck that map. It's on aussie if you want to play it. I never wanted it on the timer in the first place, rob just added it lol[...]

20. Good ideas. The trade message that you hate so much is copied verbatim from the message iT had on all their servers and is there in homage to them and Klanana. Plus I like trolling you with it. But I agree it's not as clear as it should be. I also like other ideas you had. Working on these[...]

24. Another one for malt. On maps that spawn you at either side I often have the teleport drop you in to a fail zone as a workaround for this.

25. Seems reasonable. Again, for malt.

28. You have no idea how much it bothers me that this doesn't work. I've tried to fix it in the past. Will try again though annoying as shit bug[...]

33. I'll change this, at least dropping it from 5 to a lower number. Maybe not 0 but we'll see.

34. Yea I agree it should be possible to infinite ve but only with 100% of the vote.[...]

42. I'll check the configs and set back to default[...]

44. Ubi is making a plugin for this

45. I can consider adding them for advanced servers. They are not going to be added to beginner servers, because newbies are stupid and will try to surf as heavy and then wonder why they can't beat the map.

46. Yep I like this! Another for the list for malt though.
If he does not want to implement them, then why would he lie about that? I perfectly know that I do not decide of what happens to this server. But I would assume the purpose of all the effort he puts to this community is to make people have an enjoyable experience on the server. He is doing all of that for us. And as a member as the audience targeted by this server, I think I should feel concerned about what the server wants and what the server currently achieves, and point out things that could be improved according to my point of view, and everyone else on this server should too.

I also do not blame the admins for taking months to do things. I blame them for taking months to do things, and not clearly say what they are doing behind the scenes. Even if they don't do anything, they just have to say it and everyone will understand that its not easy to manage such big servers and a busy life at the same time. Zayannah told me the other day on the server that tordana was doing a lot of programming behind the scenes that are things that cannot be noticed and takes a while to do. How am I supposed to know that? I thought he forgot about this list, but he just was in fact doing the exact opposite, which I admire but blame him for not saying that anywhere for us to know. All I am saying is that if there are people you need to count on for things to happen, they should be saying how available they are at some point to keep things transparent for everyone.

Now, the main message of my previous post was that there is no need to prepare a massive update for in 6 months with everything changed in it when you can change small things now that would actually be much more appreciated by the community in general. But the goal of my list was to get things to happen in the holidays period when people would be the most active. But it did not work. So stig, the reason I am reminding him the list isn't because everything in it is perfect and should be implemented before the ending of this sentence. But because he approved some of them a long time ago, precised that some were also easy fix and that I think he just moved on since then.

Thank you for understanding. I really want this server to become the best of its potential, I promise I really do.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by tordana » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:01 pm

Thanks for the post Sheep. Anything I said I would fix I do stand by and still intend to take care of. I realize I've been a bit sporadic with my time this summer - some of that is being really busy with work (I'm in charge of music for my state's All-State theater production this year and have been driving back and forth to Chicago (3 hours away from me) for rehearsals for that) and some of it just that the free time I do have I've wanted to spend actually playing games and not working on the servers. :P Now yes, I've been doing things the whole time that most people won't see. Nobody notices when I work with my server host to take care of a hardware router issue on their end to fix server downtime, or when I upload maps/edit configs/sync things between EU and NA, or when I spend time rewriting a plugin to work for us, or when I change all the rcon passwords because of a security breach at the hosting company that could have gained access to the server config files. Nobody notices because I don't mention it - I don't need recognition for doing the things a decent server administrator needs to do all the time, it's what I signed up for when I started ReSurfed. And if it doesn't affect anything from the user's perspective I don't see the need to keep people posted about it.

So anyway yes, things are happening - just slowly. I'd like to publically thank Epi, he's been doing a ton of behind the scenes work on EU surf servers as well as donating the hosting of them, and has also been the driving force behind ReHopped being a thing (that's all him and Butler, I've done literally nothing with that project). A lot of that will get transferred into NA.
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:34 am

Hi :D

I've played on ReSurfed for almost an year now, and while it's been great, there are quite a few potential improvements that could be made, as pointed out in the great summary on this thread. However, I feel like it's missing one of the biggest ones I would put on the table, which is the way the point system works.

The only discussion I found on this matter, by skimming through the forum, ... ?f=4&t=115, left me unsatisfied, so I decided to register here and write out my thoughts about this. English is my second language so please ignore any mistakes I make.

Problems with the current system, as far as I can see:

1. Map rank points are split into groups, and group points are based on map completions, which results in various problems, such as:
- Easy maps end up having a ton more available group points compared to hard maps, which discourages players from completing and improving PR on harder maps.
- Having to cross group boundaries before gaining points discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the next group.
- Being in group one discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the top ten.
- Players at the bottom of a group get the same amount of points as players at the top of the group, which gives an imprecise picture of how players stack to each other.
- Players cannot easily see if they have been dropped into a lower group on some map, which may have lowered their points considerably.

2. Stage rank points do not exist, with the exception of WR, which discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the WR.

3. Bonus rank points do not exist, with the exception of WR, which, as with stages, discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the WR.

4. Map completion points are based on tiers, which do not accurately describe difficulty.

5. Stage completion points are derived from the map completion points, which does not accurately describe difficulty. Also, the difficulty between stages often vary greatly.

6. Bonus completion points are based on tiers, which does not accurately describe difficulty. Also, as with stages, the difficulty between bonuses often vary greatly.

7. Players have very little reason to keep playing maps they have already completed and ranked high on. This is a serious issue especially on the easy servers that mostly run the same few maps over and over again.

What I propose is that we let go of groups and tiers altogether, and replace them with a more dynamic solution, as well as add stage and bonus rank points. Also, the last problem can be eased with achievements.

The code below shows a simplified example how to do all that. I believe it's easy enough, alongside with the comments, for everyone to understand, so I won't re-iterate everything here. Remember to enlarge the window enough so that Pastie won't wrap the text.

This is what the code prints:

What do you guys think of all this?
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by tordana » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:06 am

laddas that's a great post and I agree that a lot of that would be nice to do. With that said, we considered something similar when the point system was being made, and there are two major issues with it. I'm curious if you have ideas for solutions to them:

1. Basing map points off of number of completions gives a lot of weight to lesser-played maps (and new maps, but you fixed that issue with the map age variable). Take something like surf_oompa_loompa. Nobody likes that map so it gets played very infrequently. However, it's pretty easy! It only has 152 completions - compare that with, say, surf_omnibus which is similar difficult level but has twice as many completions (300). (Bonus fact: surf_air_control has the most completions with 4744).

2. All the points in the proposed system are derived from the number of "active" players, however we choose to define that (there's 1,613 players with 10+ map completions btw). What happens when that value changes? Do we recalculate all points immediately? That's an assload of computation, with 800,000 time records currently in the database. Do we only recalculate once in a while?
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