Suggestions...or something I guess

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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:26 pm

tordana wrote:1. Basing map points off of number of completions gives a lot of weight to lesser-played maps (and new maps, but you fixed that issue with the map age variable). Take something like surf_oompa_loompa. Nobody likes that map so it gets played very infrequently. However, it's pretty easy! It only has 152 completions - compare that with, say, surf_omnibus which is similar difficult level but has twice as many completions (300). (Bonus fact: surf_air_control has the most completions with 4744).
Currently there is very little incentive, point-wise, for players to complete, or improve times on, the less played maps. This is because completion points are heavily tied to group points, and group points are based on map completions, which creates a chicken and egg problem; the less completions a map has, the less completion points players get, and thus the less incentive there is to play the map.

The system I proposed would balance the incentive between maps by awarding the same maximum completion points for every map, and by basing minimum completion points on map completions. The less completions a map has, the more completion points players get when ranking low - and likewise, the higher players rank, the closer to the maximum completion points they get.

Surf_air_control would no longer be an insanely valuable map to complete, and improve time on, compared to, say, surf_oompa_loompa. They would both award the same maximum completion points, while the less played map, surf_oompa_loompa, would have increased minimum completion points to make sure players gain enough completion points in case the map is hard - and if it's not, then more and more players will complete it, thus bringing down the minimum completion points, until it starts to reflect the real difficulty of the map.
tordana wrote:2. All the points in the proposed system are derived from the number of "active" players, however we choose to define that (there's 1,613 players with 10+ map completions btw). What happens when that value changes? Do we recalculate all points immediately? That's an assload of computation, with 800,000 time records currently in the database. Do we only recalculate once in a while?
The number of active players will be relatively high, depending on how we define it, while the rate of change, on the other hand, will be relatively low, which means that, because the effect is so small, we don't have to often re-calculate any values based on that. Once a day sounds good.
Last edited by laddas on Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Shadow Sheep
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Shadow Sheep » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:23 pm

My list does not address these concerns because I was mainly thinking in terms of features and services the server could provide, which is why I was assuming that that kind of software settings would work itself up.

But I want to let you know that I fully approve the suggestions laddas posted about the way points are acquired and managed through the timer.

Thank you laddas for making the effort of reporting these things. I really admire and fully support the effort!
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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Malt said on the server that the point system is currently low priority, which makes me a sad panda, but maybe there is something that can be done with minimal effort to alleviate some of the issues I mentioned.
laddas wrote:1. Map rank points are split into groups, and group points are based on map completions, which results in various problems, such as:
- Easy maps end up having a ton more available group points compared to hard maps, which discourages players from completing and improving PR on harder maps.
- Having to cross group boundaries before gaining points discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the next group.
- Being in group one discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the top ten.
- Players at the bottom of a group get the same amount of points as players at the top of the group, which gives an imprecise picture of how players stack to each other.
- Players cannot easily see if they have been dropped into a lower group on some map, which may have lowered their points considerably.
While I don't know how the point system is currently implemented, I believe the aforementioned issues can be eased, with minimal effort, by doing the following:

1. Increase the number of groups from 5 to, say, 15.
2. Make the last group begin from the last rank (i.e., make group points available for all ranks).
3. Lower the effect completions have on group points, so that, e.g., surf_aircontrol would no longer award you 800 points for reaching rank 150, which equals dozen average map completions.
laddas wrote: 2. Stage rank points do not exist, with the exception of WR, which discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the WR.

3. Bonus rank points do not exist, with the exception of WR, which, as with stages, discourages players from improving PR if they feel they are too far from reaching the WR.
Adding group points for stages and bonuses might also be relatively easy to do, because the mechanism is the same as for map completions.
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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:45 pm

If I recall correctly, Malt also said something along the lines that the goal of the point system is only to make surfing a bit more fun.

It's probably evident by now, but I strongly disagree with that, which is why I went through all the effort to bring the attention I think this subject deserves and needs.

I feel like I need to expand the reasoning behind it, so here it goes.

Let's list all the relevant feelings when it comes to surfing, starting from the most prominent one:

1. Frustration
2. Relief
3. Accomplishment
4. Progress
5. Recognition
6. Joy

Without lasting statistics, I would've never played the game, because there would've only been frustration.

With lasting statistics, excluding points, I would no longer be playing the game, because instead of putting the effort on improving PR on maps, I would've put it in completing them, and by now, there wouldn't be many, if any, maps left to complete. The only thing left would be to improve PR on maps, which doesn't give a strong enough feeling of 2,3,4,5 and 6, for me to continue playing the game.

The only reason I'm still here, is because the point system has kept giving me those feelings, but as I pointed out, it has a myriad of issues, which doesn't make it nearly as good and long lived as what it could be. Soon it will have run its course, and we are back to a too weak feeling of 2,3,4,5 and 6, for me to continue playing the game.

The point system I proposed previously, including the achievements, was meant to boost the aforementioned positive feelings in order to increase the attractiveness and longevity of the game.

I'll borrow a part of what Shadow Sheep, for whom I have the greatest admiration for the effort he's gone through to improve ReSurfed, wrote in the introduction:
Shadow Sheep wrote:
What if we are just too lazy to care about your suggestions ?


Then it means you created a server for a community you don’t care about. You have to re-consider what are the objectives of your server. If you create a server, its to make people come on it. If people come on the server, its to find something enjoyable to play and that they will find unique and neat. If you are someone who wants the best for their player, you will actually encourage a lot of players to come and even help with the effort by supporting you with donations or even giving help with management and maybe plugin programming. If you show to the players that you don’t care about what you do, this positive energy would not exist because there is no real goal behind the infrastructure developed. That is the reason team fortress 2 is so popular, it had updates for the players and some of the content were done by the players and for the players. The people playing the game then felt like it was meant for them. If the developers never updated the game, then everyone would have moved on out of boringness and frustration. Resurfed is the best team fortress 2 surf server I ever played on. Please let my suggestions make it the best on the universe !
Do we want ReSurfed to offer a one time run through experience, after which there is little reason to keep playing, or do we want it to offer a perpetual stream of good feels that motivate us to keep going no matter what?

The part of me that wants to be productive in life leans to the former - the part of me that is addicted to gaming leans to the latter.

A part of me will win no matter what - you choose which part. :D
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asscmalt
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by asscmalt » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:06 pm

Its not that I don't care about improving the rank system, its more that right now I'm working on a new timer, then bug fixes, then race mode, then replay bots, then wr demos then a ton of other stuff. Also I'm doing all that stuff at a decently slow pace because I'm a full time student / am really lazy. Though once I finally finish the timer rewrite, the new code should hopefully be somewhat legible. This will allow for me to not be the only person working on timer things and maybe features can get added faster.
TheDeathly
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by TheDeathly » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:48 pm

I also definitely don't mind helping out Malt once I get more familiar with sourcepawn and how it works with sourcemod. But as malt said as a full time student working on this massive project alone things are bound to be very slow. He's also extremely lazy. Like very lazy.
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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:17 pm

asscmalt wrote:Its not that I don't care about improving the rank system, its more that right now I'm working on a new timer, then bug fixes, then race mode, then replay bots, then wr demos then a ton of other stuff. Also I'm doing all that stuff at a decently slow pace because I'm a full time student / am really lazy. Though once I finally finish the timer rewrite, the new code should hopefully be somewhat legible. This will allow for me to not be the only person working on timer things and maybe features can get added faster.
I know how you feel, because I too have software projects, among other things, for which my motivation isn't always quite as high as I would like it to be.

I keep pushing this subject because I'm passionate about it, and because I feel like it's not getting enough attention. That being said, I appreciate greatly everything you're doing for ReSurfed, even though the issues close to my heart aren't quite as high priority as I would like them to be. :D

I'm also happy to hear that you're open to the thought of other developers joining in to help, after you've rewritten the code. I have zero experience of developing anything for Team Fortress 2, but I might be interested in helping out a bit when the time comes.
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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:34 am

Shadow Sheep wrote:Server chat announcement

20. Improve the obsolete announcements in the chat to make them adapted to the audience on the server(Edit 19/07/2015: Its partially implemented on the European server thank to Epi)
This is one of the biggest flaws of Resurfed : it does not have announcement to announce useful or news relative to what is happening and how features work.

...

Announcement are supposed to explain someone who never played on resurfed how things work. He should not have to learn everything eventually by hearing conversations with other players.
A case in point:

I just met a veteran ranked player who had never heard of !sl and !tl

How many hours has this person wasted on learning new maps the hard way, only because there is no mention of these commands anywhere on the server? Not in the announcements, not in !surf, not in !commands, and not in !help.

This is a perfect example of an issue that is completely obvious and extremely easy to fix, and yet, when left unfixed, causes a lot of misery to players.

Things like these rustle my jimmies the most.
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Epi
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by Epi » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:56 am

laddas wrote:!sl and !tl
not in !commands
I'll add them asap.
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laddas
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Re: Suggestions...or something I guess

Post by laddas » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:43 am

Epi wrote:
laddas wrote:!sl and !tl
not in !commands
I'll add them asap.
Image

Also, in case you meant to include !sl and !tl only in !commands, then please make sure !commands itself is advertised clearly enough either in the MOTD or as an announcement, because otherwise we are not advancing much here.

An ideal solution, in my opinion, would be to include all the relevant information in the MOTD so that players cannot miss it.
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